Generals with BGs

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:56 pm

A Bg has to rout due to losing impact in the opponents turn. It has a General with the group, but not leading from the front.

Behind that BG resides a friendly BG prevent it from shifting nor contracting and a 2nd BG beyond that.

The routing BG's VMD is only far enough to get thru 1/2 of the 1st BG and not the second.

There is no room for the routing BG to fit between the two blocking BGs.

Accordingly the routing BG is destroyed and removed.

what happens to the Gen that was with the routing BG?

Madcam.

edited once to show it was not the routing BGs turn

kal5056 · Post by **kal5056** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:20 am

The pursuer gets 1 roll to see if they kill the general on a 10 or better. If the general survives he can move to any battle group within the normal movement of Light Horse over the terrain to me crossed.

Gino
SMAC

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:54 am

Sorry, but don't rules state rout move must be adjusted as per evade move? IMO you interpenetrate friendly, making room to fit bases which pass through first BG but not second.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:04 am

My immediate thought is that the pursuers roll looking for a 10+ and if they get it the commander is killed, if not he gets to fight another day. Not asying I am right but that is what I think.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:45 am

kal5056 wrote:The pursuer gets 1 roll to see if they kill the general on a 10 or better. If the general survives he can move to any battle group within the normal movement of Light Horse over the terrain to me crossed.

Gino
SMAC

Yes, but only if pursuers are still in contact with routers at the end of the pursuing move. If routers must be removed, I think you should examine case by case if pursuers would have contacted routers. For example, if routers are removed due to impassable terrain and pursuers had enough movement to catch'em, you roll for commander's loss; if routers are removed because they leave the table I would say you don't get the death roll.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:05 am

If the routers are removed then the pursuers won't be in contact at the end of the pursuit. Therefore you do not roll to kill the commander. I can't see any room for doubt on that one.

The commander will be left alone on the table and responds as normal for that situation. Unless you can find a rule somewhere that says a commander must suffer the same fate as a routing battlegroup he is with (IRRC that would only apply to a BG that routed off the table).

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:55 am

lawrenceg wrote:If the routers are removed then the pursuers won't be in contact at the end of the pursuit. Therefore you do not roll to kill the commander. I can't see any room for doubt on that one.

The commander will be left alone on the table and responds as normal for that situation. Unless you can find a rule somewhere that says a commander must suffer the same fate as a routing battlegroup he is with (IRRC that would only apply to a BG that routed off the table).

Actually if the routers can't burst through then they just stop before they burst through anything and are then removed at the end of the phase so there is a very good chance that the pursuers will catch them. P108

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:08 pm

Actually if the routers can't burst through then they just stop before they burst through anything and are then removed at the end of the phase so there is a very good chance that the pursuers will catch them. P108

Not strictly true Hammy. P108, 2nd bullet, says adjust per evade moves. It is only destroyed in place if it's move is obstructed by unbroken enemy.

As per P49, I think you did the move correctly Scott.

As others have noted, I think the Commander gets away scot free as the pursuers do not end in contact with it.. (pun intended)

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:48 pm

petedalby wrote:
Actually if the routers can't burst through then they just stop before they burst through anything and are then removed at the end of the phase so there is a very good chance that the pursuers will catch them. P108
Not strictly true Hammy. P108, 2nd bullet, says adjust per evade moves. It is only destroyed in place if it's move is obstructed by unbroken enemy.

As per P49, I think you did the move correctly Scott.

As others have noted, I think the Commander gets away scot free as the pursuers do not end in contact with it.. (pun intended)

A routing BG that cannot make its move is removed at the end of the phase. There must therfore be a chance for the pursuers to catch it.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:51 pm

petedalby wrote:
Actually if the routers can't burst through then they just stop before they burst through anything and are then removed at the end of the phase so there is a very good chance that the pursuers will catch them. P108
Not strictly true Hammy. P108, 2nd bullet, says adjust per evade moves. It is only destroyed in place if it's move is obstructed by unbroken enemy.

As per P49, I think you did the move correctly Scott.

As others have noted, I think the Commander gets away scot free as the pursuers do not end in contact with it.. (pun intended)

IMO,this happens:

Leaders can only leave a BG in their own movement phase or JAP phase(pg 49 movement of commanders). As such, the routing BG, since it only made it 1/2 way thru the first blocking friendly BG and as there is not room for it to "pop" out the rear due to the 2nd blocking BG it is destroyed.(pg49 under "bursting thru friends)

HERE IS WHERE WE NEED ADDITIONAL RULING FROM THE AUTHORS THE KEY WORDING IS THUS:

"...If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any Bgs it is currently bursting thru if there is room for it beyond, OTHERWISE IT IS DESTROYED AND REMOVED FROM THE TABLE..."

When does this happen? the BG is not autobroken nor reduced to 1 base... As such IMO this happens immediately and not in the JAP....

the leader sincde he can't leave the BG as its not his turn and its not the JAP would be destroyed with it. No cohesion test is taken for friends seeing this (pg 49)

But we played it where the Gen go off free.

It was the enemy IC, and it mattered....

for those that offer other opinions, please cite and explain per the rules....

thanks.

madcam.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:02 pm

As the General is now not with a BG would he not be able to move to any friendly BG within unobstucted move distance, as per the rules for shot at and contacted lone generals.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:03 pm

philqw78 wrote:As the General is now not with a BG would he not be able to move to any friendly BG within unobstucted move distance, as per the rules for shot at and contacted lone generals.

Not per pag 49 as he can only move in his movement phase or the JAP>

Madcam.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:10 pm

On page 50 of the rules it says that

'if a battle groups move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a battle group he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly battle group if there is one within normal move distance, if not he does not move and is immediately lost.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:42 pm

philqw78 wrote:On page 50 of the rules it says that

'if a battle groups move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a battle group he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly battle group if there is one within normal move distance, if not he does not move and is immediately lost.

Immaterial, he is with the routing BG. He cant leave till his movement phase or the JAP. Doesn't apply.

What we need to know is when a BG is removed when it its destroyed by not being able to complete its rout via page 49 (not auto broken nor reduced to 1 base - those happen in the JAP when the General could leave the BG)

Madcam.

edited 2x for clarity.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:49 pm

madcam2us wrote:"...If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any Bgs it is currently bursting thru if there is room for it beyond, OTHERWISE IT IS DESTROYED AND REMOVED FROM THE TABLE..."

When does this happen? the BG is not autobroken nor reduced to 1 base... As such IMO this happens immediately and not in the JAP....

If you read the rules on initial rout on P100-101 and on rout in the JAP on P108 you will find that routing BGs are removed at the end of the phase. I suspect that there perhaps should be a repeat of at the end of the phase in the interpenetration rules.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:05 pm

hammy wrote:
madcam2us wrote:"...If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any Bgs it is currently bursting thru if there is room for it beyond, OTHERWISE IT IS DESTROYED AND REMOVED FROM THE TABLE..."

When does this happen? the BG is not autobroken nor reduced to 1 base... As such IMO this happens immediately and not in the JAP....
If you read the rules on initial rout on P100-101 and on rout in the JAP on P108 you will find that routing BGs are removed at the end of the phase. I suspect that there perhaps should be a repeat of at the end of the phase in the interpenetration rules.

thanks for the pages Hammy but as Pete said, not pertinent to the situation at hand.

Pages 100-101 don't address what happens when the routing BG can't complete its rout due to friendly BGs - only "unbroken enemy BGs". to see what happens for friendly BGs blocking we have to refer to page 49.

Page 108 deals with additional routs in the JAP. We haven't gotten there yet at its still the impact phase of my turn.

Page 109 dealing with Removing destroyed BGs states autobreaks and 1-base BGs are removed in the JAP. The BG wasn't autobroken nor reduced to 1 base.

None of these answer my question.

What happens to the enemy General? Since it was my turn, he couldn't leave the DESTOYED BG until the JAP.

The leader is WITH the BG when it is DESTROYED (not autobroken nor reduced to 1 base).

Madcam.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:18 pm

Does page 50 help us????

Under troops leaving the table:

"if a commander is routing or evading with a BG that leaves the table, he is removed from play for the remainder of the game. It is not necessary to take a cohesion test for the BG(s) seeing this....

I think I just found my answer....

Page 49 uses the same language:

..."If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any BG it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table. No cohesion test is taken for friends seeing this....

Anyone see holes thru this?

summary, the General is removed with the BG per page 49-50 as cited above?.

Madcam.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:34 pm

madcam2us wrote:Pages 100-101 don't address what happens when the routing BG can't complete its rout due to friendly BGs - only "unbroken enemy BGs". to see what happens for friendly BGs blocking we have to refer to page 49.

I was going to question this but having reread the relevant rules I can't find anything that says that blocking friends are moved to make room if routers or evaders are forced to burst through friends. Odd that, all the other bursting through or moving through rules do include a section that blocking friends are displaced.

Hmm.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:52 pm

Something else that I noticed on re-reading page 50 about BGs with leaders leaving the table....

But I don't want to confuse this topic, I'll post its own.

(by the way, I think it was purposeful that the authors wanted to punish one for having friendly troops stacked too closely together....IIIRC don't Restricted Areas extend 2 inches regardless of troops in the way?) Page 49 gives us the consequences of not pre-planning all circumstances... )

Madcam.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:55 pm

madcam2us wrote:
(by the way, I think it was purposeful that the authors wanted to punish one for having friendly troops stacked too closely together....IIIRC don't Restricted Areas extend 2 inches regardless of troops in the way?) Page 49 gives us the consequences of not pre-planning all circumstances... )

Madcam.

but this doesn't always work. I destroyed 3 BG at Britcon in quick succession. They could not complete their route as they could not burst through their friends. My BG were on the other side of them.