AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

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Tassadar
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AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Tassadar »

With the news of Panzer Corps 2 Pacific DLC getting shelved and the upcoming DLC looking in another, yet not revealed direction, I thought it is a good moment to look back at the AO DLC mechanics and ideas that got introduced over the course of the series to think about how they stand the test of time and how the evolved. This is a chance to sum up what was done and what could be utilized more, at the same time noting the options that were interesting experiments, that ultimately failed and probably can be safely ignored.

AO Spanish Civil War

1. AI controlled allies - This idea was successfully implemented in future DLC, so it can stay, specially since the new feature to speed up the AI turn made it less of a time consuming hassle to watch the fighting when used narratively and far form the players positions. I'd say it's here to stay and has many potential uses, but would benefit from improved AI on both sides. Also, it was proven in SCW that these forces using player's prestige pool was not something that aged well. In most cases, the prestige pool of each force should be separate. Very solid feature if not overused.
2. Hidden caches - Being a returning feature from Panzer Corps 1, I think it works well in the second installment. Later down the line it got slightly replaced with other variances of the idea, but it remains a proven, reliable way to give some unique equipment, while not forcing the player to use it. Can be used occasionally when it makes sense, but nothing the game needs on a regular basis.
3. Commendation Points - While later slowly phased out over time, this is a feature I think can stay, but should only give optional awards in the form of refills of prototypes and captured equipment. This way the player can decide what to spend them on, the awards will be purely optional and never feel like missing something critical. Special heroes and gift units should be given using different options. They are ways to give the same awards better.
4. Gift units - what started with the Verdeja 2 proved to be a very successfully idea, but perhaps got blurred a bit in later DLC. When I feel it works best is early stages of the campaigns, where the awards are prototypes, low production series vehicles that stand out and either are just better than anything "normal", or have unique stat options, allowing for special usage, yet challenging to optimize (like the Neubaufahrzeug). Later just giving a prototype stock to upgrade veteran units works better. Great idea, but later down the line can be minimized or even skipped. A Go 229A in later campaigns just does not have the same impact.
5. Special heroes - The unique, very flavorful and and powerful way to customize the player's core. Again returning feature from Panzer Corps 1 and it's one of the best features ever added. This gives the much needed flavor to the force composition. Still it should be carefully balanced and getting these heroes would be best gated behind specific elite objectives, so each one feels earned. The ultimate award mechanic.
6. Early start of the campaign - Why begin the German campaign in Poland as per usual, when it can start in Spain? Any potential Italian campaign should begin in Ethiopia, a Soviet DLC in Khalkhin Gol, and so on. It does not have to be a lengthy introduction, but even one early scenario and a chance to get s smudge of experience on the units this way feels like a reward itself. Would love to see campaigns start earlier than they used to in the past.
7. Other nations in the force - The CTV troops in Spain were a nice addition, especially combining in unique ways with the Industry Connections trait, but the fact the served as auxiliary troops alone felt less impactful. This is a mixed bag and will not always feel correct to utilize, but a multi-nation force with ability to add the other nations to the core will make sense in some campaigns. Afrika Korps should have Italians as the extra core option. Allied DLC can have Free French, Polish and perhaps even Commonwealth units as additional options. It has potential for interesting applications, but will not always make sense and will require careful edits to the Units.csv file to not have awkward moments like Polish 1939 era recon cars appearing in historic 1944 Lublin mission.
8. Fortified AI reinforcement zones - The only viable way to handle this element of the game until Panzer Corps 3 of the future figures out a way of a more elegant solution, if at all possible. A necessary evil, that depends on map design, but does the job well.
9. Nemesis system - It fell apart after 1941, but it was refreshing. I could certainly see some potential for seeing Rudel used on the eastern front but this time against the player... There is some good potential in this idea used in limited scale.

AO1939

1. Alternative, less known path - Using Saar Offensive was a neat, but controversial way to refresh the 1939 campaign. I feel this has some serious potential, but should remain a part of branching paths, so that the player can make the final decision. Always welcome to see less known battles, but sometimes it should remain a matter of choice.
2. Missions without the core force used - Fornebu was a always a bit of a dud to me. I am all for scenarios with more obscure objectives, but I don't thinks the player should be denied using his own units, even if it this case it made only logical sense form the narrative perspective. The process of getting experience and awards is ne of the more awarding elements, so it would work best to be integrated to such missions in some way. I am just not feeling it this time.

AO1940

1. Hidden objectives - Having to rewrite history and saving a particular ship in Norway was an interesting surprise. Still I prefer things like this are clear from the start, so that players don't miss out, as in the era of spoilers, the cat is out of the bag quickly anyway. I do not have any particularly string opinions in any direction here.
2. Training missions - If the campaigns are long, this is a really interesting thing to do and can be used, but of course with that very limited deployment. I am a fan of this concept, as long as it is not overused. Still, allied troops could for example do some exercise before Overlord as a good example (Exercise Tiger anyone?). Allows to get some of the more awkward units leveled up, so I appreciate having the opportunity.
3. Air only missions - It's a yes, as long as they are either optional, can be ended early, or are not stacked against more challenging runs. A way to break the pace a bit, plus there are many specific operations that have historical potential on the Allied side.
4. Optional and fictional path - This obviously grew in size in AO 1945 and 1946, but the idea works well. Would work better for Axis campaigns of course, for obvious reasons, but Operation Unthinkable and Operation Groza would be interesting branching endings to their respective campaigns.
5. Mass paratrooper operations - Some missions requiring an extensive use of paratroops are ok, but would need some setup as not all players will have the needed units, or a chance to upgrade them. Either missions, or their parts are more optional, or combined with some earlier solid training. I prefer the air only missions to these.

AO1941 and AO1942

These mostly built on existing mechanics, so I am not sure if there is a major new thing to take note of.

AO1943

1. Tokens - This a way to make the campaign have requirements to change history, and some similar ways to track this were used before in the regular campaign as well, in the for of prestige requirements and special results achieved. Makes sense for single run campaigns, but for AO long style ones I think just allowing the player to decide works better. More of a way to go around engine limitations than an actually needed mechanic.

AO1944

1. Elite objectives - The way they were used here and in 1945 is preferable for me to the AO1946 version where they appeared in basically every mission. They make perfect sense, but should be rarer, to feel more special once they do appear. This is one of the best ways to balance the challenge, but does not need to exist for every scenario.
2. Narrative only missions - Fine distraction for fictional paths, where a lot more buildup and narration is needed. Still, it probably works only for very long AO style campaigns, no need to include in shorter ones. Fine, but I'd be careful about including them in the final scenario count. :)

AO1945

Again mostly more of 1944, so not that many new thighs to discuss unless I missed something important.

AO1946

1. Large battleship and carrier models - Has the imposing scale effect and should be here to stay.
2. Atomic weapons - Unlikely to be used in many other mission, but mechanical implementation works perfectly fine.
3. Unified bonus and elite objectives - Works well at what it does, but I think it does not have to be in every mission. I think the fact these got standardized would be great for informing the player what to expect, but not every mission needs to have both of these and sometimes not even either of them, as they can distract from the bigger picture of the whole mission.
4. Landkreuzers - I'm not expecting this to surface again aside form some very unique circumstances, but I enjoy the fact the engine allows some more interesting ways to design new unit types.
5. Prestige/core slot special unit balance change - very interesting concept that I feel shows two main points of focus. First is the way that any prototype units and gift unit can be balanced by not only limited parts, but also much higher prestige costs and it can be introduced way earlier than before. Perhaps it is yet another way to balance out pioneer infantry further? The second is that while the prestige cost factor is implemented to legacy units decently, it could use some refreshment when new campaigns arrive, as there are units that have a bizarre core slot cost compared to their stats. This was not an issue when they ere used by the AI, but now if the players were to use them it could affect their utility. Some German units as well could have some cost revisions done.

Thought and ideas are welcome. What would you like to be preserved in non-AO campaigns and what do you think was a blind alley?
Kerensky
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Kerensky »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:19 pm AO1945

Again mostly more of 1944, so not that many new thighs to discuss unless I missed something important.
Was that a Freudian slip? :shock:

Just in case it wasn't though, I'll share some thighs with you. Just to cover all my bases, ya know?

Image

:!: :!: :!: Several more AI gen art images, all of which I consider completely SFW, but as always, click the links at your own discretion. :!: :!: :!:

https://i.imgur.com/JCS44G9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vp2DF7g.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1wseGuy.jpg
Kerensky
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Kerensky »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:19 pm AO1941 and AO1942

These mostly built on existing mechanics, so I am not sure if there is a major new thing to take note of.
It's been a while since 1941, I'd have to go back and look in detail. I remember it being lighter on mechanics to focus on new unit models and making it the largest DLC to date, at the time (20 scenarios).

In 1942 though, we introduced 'aircraft only' missions, such as the Channel Dash and a few Eastern Front missions.
Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:19 pm
AO1945

Again mostly more of 1944, so not that many new thighs to discuss unless I missed something important.
Thigh jokes aside, 1945 was very intentionally built on existing features, to clear the whole workbench to make room for the extensive mechanic and code changes that needed to make things like AoE Atomic weapons and Landkreuzers work in 1946.
Tassadar
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Tassadar »

Kerensky wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:04 pm Just in case it wasn't though, I'll share some thighs with you. Just to cover all my bases, ya know?

Image

:!: :!: :!: Several more AI gen art images, all of which I consider completely SFW, but as always, click the links at your own discretion. :!: :!: :!:

https://i.imgur.com/JCS44G9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vp2DF7g.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1wseGuy.jpg
Ah, a man of culture. I can respect that. :mrgreen:
Kerensky
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Kerensky »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:56 pm Ah, a man of culture. I can respect that. :mrgreen:
I consider myself the opposite of a misogynist. I luuuv da ladies and I especially luv to see them in all kinds of fancy and neat (and sexy) outfits! <3

I pushed for having Elsa Kloss in game as the first female hero character, and have been sprinkling in females into Axis Operations under the historical precedent of being Wehrmachthelferin ever since. Nobody told me to put Ida Brandt the briefing character into the AO series, I wanted her there. :mrgreen:

But anyways, to try to steer the thread back on track. It would have been interesting to see what Pacific might have had in the way of new mechanics, and I am curious to see what is in store for this new and yet unannounced content that has since been mentioned.

There's never a shortage of ideas, but implementing ideas with the code work involved AND trying to make them fun and engaging and interesting... that's a tall order. :idea:
Thunderhog
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Thunderhog »

Kerensky wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:16 am
Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:56 pm Ah, a man of culture. I can respect that. :mrgreen:
I consider myself the opposite of a misogynist. I luuuv da ladies and I especially luv to see them in all kinds of fancy and neat (and sexy) outfits! <3

I pushed for having Elsa Kloss in game as the first female hero character, and have been sprinkling in females into Axis Operations under the historical precedent of being Wehrmachthelferin ever since. Nobody told me to put Ida Brandt the briefing character into the AO series, I wanted her there. :mrgreen:

But anyways, to try to steer the thread back on track. It would have been interesting to see what Pacific might have had in the way of new mechanics, and I am curious to see what is in store for this new and yet unannounced content that has since been mentioned.

There's never a shortage of ideas, but implementing ideas with the code work involved AND trying to make them fun and engaging and interesting... that's a tall order. :idea:
I really hope the next DLC you're making is Allies focused because there would be a plethora of Women we could add to the core forces (Especially female nurses that could do well in infantry units)
adiekmann
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by adiekmann »

Kerensky wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:16 am
Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:56 pm Ah, a man of culture. I can respect that. :mrgreen:
I consider myself the opposite of a misogynist. I luuuv da ladies and I especially luv to see them in all kinds of fancy and neat (and sexy) outfits! <3

I pushed for having Elsa Kloss in game as the first female hero character, and have been sprinkling in females into Axis Operations under the historical precedent of being Wehrmachthelferin ever since. Nobody told me to put Ida Brandt the briefing character into the AO series, I wanted her there. :mrgreen:

So! You are pro [hot] Nazi [babes]! :lol: Along with Elfen, Italian, Anime...

But anyways, to try to steer the thread back on track. It would have been interesting to see what Pacific might have had in the way of new mechanics, and I am curious to see what is in store for this new and yet unannounced content that has since been mentioned.

Ah, so if I read between the lines this means that you are not currently involved in the current content that Marco mentioned is in development on Twitch. Can you confirm or deny?

There's never a shortage of ideas, but implementing ideas with the code work involved AND trying to make them fun and engaging and interesting... that's a tall order. :idea:

A lot of great (and not so great) ideas have been posted in this forum over the years, or even put in to action by the leading mod creators. However, I have always wondered, along with my own ideas, how feasible they would be to actually implement.
adiekmann
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by adiekmann »

Thunderhog wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:35 am
Kerensky wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:16 am
Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:56 pm Ah, a man of culture. I can respect that. :mrgreen:
I consider myself the opposite of a misogynist. I luuuv da ladies and I especially luv to see them in all kinds of fancy and neat (and sexy) outfits! <3

I pushed for having Elsa Kloss in game as the first female hero character, and have been sprinkling in females into Axis Operations under the historical precedent of being Wehrmachthelferin ever since. Nobody told me to put Ida Brandt the briefing character into the AO series, I wanted her there. :mrgreen:

But anyways, to try to steer the thread back on track. It would have been interesting to see what Pacific might have had in the way of new mechanics, and I am curious to see what is in store for this new and yet unannounced content that has since been mentioned.

There's never a shortage of ideas, but implementing ideas with the code work involved AND trying to make them fun and engaging and interesting... that's a tall order. :idea:
I really hope the next DLC you're making is Allies focused because there would be a plethora of Women we could add to the core forces (Especially female nurses that could do well in infantry units)
Yes, like "A Brigade of Their Own." And like the movie "A League of Their Own," they wouldn't wear standard uniforms like the men, but rather short skirts and low cut blouses. They would all have a Distraction Hero and a special First Aid hero that could heal adjacent units. :mrgreen:
Kerensky
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Kerensky »

adiekmann wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:06 am So! You are pro [hot] Nazi [babes]! :lol: Along with Elfen, Italian, Anime...
Guilty as charged. :mrgreen:
Kerensky
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Kerensky »

adiekmann wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:06 am Ah, so if I read between the lines this means that you are not currently involved in the current content that Marco mentioned is in development on Twitch. Can you confirm or deny?
Sure, if they can say Pacific was 'a different team' I can say the current content is also a 'different team'. :)

I'm still on vacation, for the moment. :D
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Bee1976 »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:19 pm
2. Hidden caches - Being a returning feature from Panzer Corps 1, I think it works well in the second installment. Later down the line it got slightly replaced with other variances of the idea, but it remains a proven, reliable way to give some unique equipment, while not forcing the player to use it. Can be used occasionally when it makes sense, but nothing the game needs on a regular basis.
3. Commendation Points - While later slowly phased out over time, this is a feature I think can stay, but should only give optional awards in the form of refills of prototypes and captured equipment. This way the player can decide what to spend them on, the awards will be purely optional and never feel like missing something critical. Special heroes and gift units should be given using different options. They are ways to give the same awards better.
I agree on most parts of your post, but i would like to disagree with you on these 2 points.

I really really really missed that hidden cache feature in 1946. Its something i can enjoy on a regular base. Little rewards fpr exploring the map or reaching strange playces on them ap is something that feels good (for me).

And i prefer the commendation point system over Elite objective rewards. If you gate special heros behind elite objectives , players will feel forced to do them. And its even worse iy players miss an elite objective this will feel bad and the lack of a "super hero" will make it harder to achieve special heros via elite objectives in later missions.
The CP System allows the player "to farm" them and spend them on stuff they want. And combined with suply sinks or something like that, every player can earn those heros.

The only thing i would add is more options to spend CP.
----------------------------------------------------------
Due to the controversial nature of the nemesis system i would suggest making the whole system a chalnnge. So players who enjoy the Nemesis Threat can enjoy them and player who dislike the whole Nemesis thingy can avoid it.
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by makoto14 »

I will never forget my 19 pieces of Soviet 203mm artillery from a hidden cache in the first mission of AO. That guy went the long way from Seville to Washington DC in 7 years!!


Bee1976 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:40 pm
Tassadar wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:19 pm
2. Hidden caches - Being a returning feature from Panzer Corps 1, I think it works well in the second installment. Later down the line it got slightly replaced with other variances of the idea, but it remains a proven, reliable way to give some unique equipment, while not forcing the player to use it. Can be used occasionally when it makes sense, but nothing the game needs on a regular basis.
3. Commendation Points - While later slowly phased out over time, this is a feature I think can stay, but should only give optional awards in the form of refills of prototypes and captured equipment. This way the player can decide what to spend them on, the awards will be purely optional and never feel like missing something critical. Special heroes and gift units should be given using different options. They are ways to give the same awards better.
I agree on most parts of your post, but i would like to disagree with you on these 2 points.

I really really really missed that hidden cache feature in 1946. Its something i can enjoy on a regular base. Little rewards fpr exploring the map or reaching strange playces on them ap is something that feels good (for me).

And i prefer the commendation point system over Elite objective rewards. If you gate special heros behind elite objectives , players will feel forced to do them. And its even worse iy players miss an elite objective this will feel bad and the lack of a "super hero" will make it harder to achieve special heros via elite objectives in later missions.
The CP System allows the player "to farm" them and spend them on stuff they want. And combined with suply sinks or something like that, every player can earn those heros.

The only thing i would add is more options to spend CP.
----------------------------------------------------------
Due to the controversial nature of the nemesis system i would suggest making the whole system a chalnnge. So players who enjoy the Nemesis Threat can enjoy them and player who dislike the whole Nemesis thingy can avoid it.
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by DefiantXYX »

makoto14 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:05 am I will never forget my 19 pieces of Soviet 203mm artillery from a hidden cache in the first mission of AO.
Yeah, definately one of the best caches. Special unit that can change your playstyle and a cache you wont get by 0815 playstyle. That's a problem that was getting worse with the years. >1943 you dont need caches, since your own equipment is just better. The developers found no solution to this, even the "elite rewards" in 1946 are 95% crap.
And the maps are too small, 99% focused on the main objectives. It is almost impossible to not find any caches, since you always conquer everything. There is no map where you could get in a corner with some paratroopers, or you take a small force and go in a direction, where you dont have to.
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Bee1976 »

Kerensky wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 10:02 am I'm still on vacation, for the moment. :D
Wagner calls you back to duty! :D

Just kidding - enjoy the spare time!
Tassadar
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Re: AO mechanics and ideas retrospective

Post by Tassadar »

DefiantXYX wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:07 am Yeah, definately one of the best caches. Special unit that can change your playstyle and a cache you wont get by 0815 playstyle. That's a problem that was getting worse with the years. >1943 you dont need caches, since your own equipment is just better. The developers found no solution to this, even the "elite rewards" in 1946 are 95% crap.
That almost seems inevitable in the final DLC. What could change it is giving units that are different, and the Sherman Crab and Verdeja 3 are an example of that, but at this stage of the war most units could have been captured by this point and the base German equipment has all bases covered. These caches were at their best until 1940, when especially with Retrograde the base vehicles were somehow really underwhelming and is also the reason I prefer the overall gameplay experience until 1942 (not related to AO or any other camping overall, just my observation based on unit stats).
DefiantXYX wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:07 am And the maps are too small, 99% focused on the main objectives. It is almost impossible to not find any caches, since you always conquer everything. There is no map where you could get in a corner with some paratroopers, or you take a small force and go in a direction, where you dont have to.
Operation Tenacity, Operation O-Go, Battle of San Francisco, Portland Trail, Battle of Los Angeles, Battle of Hoover Dam and a few more could have such areas, but since there are both bonus objectives and elite objectives now, these potential areas either replace this, or are unpopulated by any units and locations. There is some space on the maps, just not used not he same way anymore. That said, the feeling of the maps getting smaller also coms from he fact that most imported cores will be powerful enough to clear many maps.
Thunderhog wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:35 am I really hope the next DLC you're making is Allies focused because there would be a plethora of Women we could add to the core forces (Especially female nurses that could do well in infantry units)
Perhaps not a plethora to not go overboard beyond the actual scale of the roles, but I felt it was great to see this accent brought up in a way that is both interesting and respectful to historical reality at the same time. It's something often just done by many developers to get a popular checkbox dealt, sometimes in pure science-fiction fashion, and it really does not have to be like this, as evidence by AO heroes. Especially any Soviets Corps DLC have potential here with the likes of Yevdokiya Bershanskaya or Lyudmila Pavlichenko, but there are also examples in other countries. The British had the WAAF service or the absolutely fascinating Western Approaches Tactical Unit which helped immensely with the fighting against German subs (granted, might be hard to find ways to setup hero abilities here, but it's not impossible). Many nations had air ambulance units, couriers, mechanics etc., so there are ideas to choose from, just with proper thought given to them each time.
Bee1976 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:40 pm I really really really missed that hidden cache feature in 1946. Its something i can enjoy on a regular base. Little rewards fpr exploring the map or reaching strange playces on them ap is something that feels good (for me).
Both options could coexist, with the hidden caches offering refills on what is first found in elite objectives for example. This way they would remain valuable and yet not forced and also encourage more diversified Elite Objective awards.
Bee1976 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:40 pm And i prefer the commendation point system over Elite objective rewards. If you gate special heros behind elite objectives , players will feel forced to do them. And its even worse iy players miss an elite objective this will feel bad and the lack of a "super hero" will make it harder to achieve special heros via elite objectives in later missions.
This is a valid point, but I feel that Elite objectives in AO1946 are quite smart in what they offer. The best awards (heroes) are interestingly enough behind some of the easier elite objectives to get, while the more tricky ones will often offer a limited selection of awards. This is subject to player's core composition and balance, but for the three unique heroes did not feel struggling while some of the ones offering quote petty bonuses were much much harder.
Bee1976 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:40 pm The CP System allows the player "to farm" them and spend them on stuff they want. And combined with suply sinks or something like that, every player can earn those heros.

The only thing i would add is more options to spend CP.
This is also valid, since the CP system biggest flaw is that without checking on the web ahead of time, going thought the campaign one or being really diligent with not spending them on things the player is sure they will not need, there is always this feeling of uncertainty as to if when the time comes, the player will have enough CP for the intended award and if taking one now, will not prevent an even better one in future missions. Elite Objectives have the benefit over CP, that they allow focusin on each individual instance and evaluate it in a standalone fashion.
Bee1976 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:40 pm Due to the controversial nature of the nemesis system i would suggest making the whole system a chalnnge. So players who enjoy the Nemesis Threat can enjoy them and player who dislike the whole Nemesis thingy can avoid it.
If that is possible to code in the options configuration, it would be interesting, but probably a bit too complex to implement at least in the current game.
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