AO 1946 feedback

[kverdon]

Thanks, AO1945 provided a very “Rommelesque” end to the series that I could accept. I’m not a huge Rommel fan (and I’ve read Attacks and The Rommel Papers) outside he saw the writing on the the wall in 1943 in that Germany could not compete industrially with the UK/USA alliance. Carrying the series into 1946 tends to provide a glorified whitewashed version of 1940s German National Socialism that I find disturbing that the publisher seems to encourage.

I honestly think the Panzer Corps 2 engine needs to be retired in favor of a more balanced engine that does both Land/Air and Sea combat well. Order of Battle is the closest I've seen. Panzer Corps 2 has outstripped its usefulness. The Land Combat is Ok, the Air Combat is marginal and the Naval combat is abysmal and the AI has glaring defects that seem to be only to be able to be addressed by nerfing the player forces by adding in AI controlled "Allies". Watching an AI Ally vrs AI Enemy turn is so moronically frustrating beyond belief. Watching the opening scenarios of AO 1946 where the allied IJN fights the AI USN is so abysmally painful. It was so bad the dev's had to resort to artificially hard coding an artificial result to match their narrative. (ie. 75% health Akagi and Yamato are magically reduced to "flaming wrecks" to fit the narrative because the AI outcome could not be achieved. As Sea Lord Jakie Fisher said in 1905 "Scrap the lot".

[DefiantXYX]

Carrying the series into 1946 tends to provide a glorified whitewashed version of 1940s German National Socialism that I find disturbing that the publisher seems to encourage.

Come on, it is just a game and a "Whaf If" scenario. At least for me its the first time I play something like that.

[Bee1976]

Carrying the series into 1946 tends to provide a glorified whitewashed version of 1940s German National Socialism that I find disturbing in other Slitherine titles.

Well there is a reason Rommel is the new Reichskanzler of that "what if" scenario. There is always the problem, that WWII Wargames will always be poisoned by the foul ideology of the Nazi-Regime.Its hard to seperate ideology and the military part in WWII wargames where you can play the german side. That Kerensky installed Rommel, who was never a friend of the Nazi-Ideology, makes sense.

As a german, im really happy that we lost that war! As a gamer im happy to play a nice tactical game and that im able to win it. And i will have the same fun, winning this game in "what if" scenarios in SovietCorps, AlliedCorps and so on.

At least this is my approach: "Its just a game, go and win it, with some story."

[kverdon]

I understand that as a German you want an outcome where your country wins, it’s understandable. However, as a non German I don’t agree. Yes it is hard not to remove the Nazi taint from the German side in WWw games, but there is a reason for that. It is irrevocably tied together. You can’t coveniently dismiss that and as such I am very much opposed to any outcome where Germany “Wins” WW2. An outcome where Germany manages a regime change a fights to avoid the horror of Soviet occupation I am ok with. But for the absolute horror they unleashed upon the world in 1939, they have to justifiably lose. To allow any other outcome is a horrible disservice to the millions of people who died to end that. You may say “it’s only a game” but to an entire generation it was a nightmare. That fact needs to be remembered and white washing it or glorifing the “coolness” of the German military and its units had no place. It leads down the path of “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”.

Rommel tend to get a pass in modern history due to his reputation as the “Desert Fox” and for his attempt to turn his back on the monster he helped unleash and his utter betrayal and death by that same monster. However he was a willing and active participant in the events that helped feed the German National Socialist Monster and spur on German military agression. He was and never could be a “Hero”.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

I understand that as a German you want an outcome where your country wins, it’s understandable. However, as a non German I don’t agree. Yes it is hard not to remove the Nazi taint from the German side in WWw games, but there is a reason for that. It is irrevocably tied together. You can’t coveniently dismiss that and as such I am very much opposed to any outcome where Germany “Wins” WW2. An outcome where Germany manages a regime change a fights to avoid the horror of Soviet occupation I am ok with. But for the absolute horror they unleashed upon the world in 1939, they have to justifiably lose. To allow any other outcome is a horrible disservice to the millions of people who died to end that. You may say “it’s only a game” but to an entire generation it was a nightmare. That fact needs to be remembered and white washing it or glorifing the “coolness” of the German military and its units had no place. It leads down the path of “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”.

As a non German I don't agree with your opinion either. There is no such rule that the bad guy must lose the war they started. If you want to talk about the horror such a regime can cause, take a look at how was the local people driven away from their home in America, or those taken away as slaves from Africa, just a few hundreds years ago. Wasn't those nightmares for these people? Should all colonists and their home countrys not be allowed to win in a campaign that portraits them and that time, so that Spanish, British, Portuguese forces etc should and only can be thrown back to their European homeland in video games?

Rommel was indeed part of the Nazi war machine, and might not deserve what he has been described as, I personally agree with that part, but that doesn't mean he can not be set up as a less aggressive figure in an alternative timeline created by a game whose story focus on the German side in WWII. Maybe you should consider taking a job in my country, I dare say that we have the most ridiculous checks for "bad encouragement" in video games in China, where blood can't be red and people can't be killed, you know. You can't even use the word "kill" in the text chat of a war game.

[kverdon]

Your argument fails on the basic premise that two (or many wrongs) do not make a right. It does have merit in that there is a good reason we don’t have games where the cavalry distributes smallpox blankets to the Indians, you round up slaves for profit or you succeed in colonization by wiping out civilization through biowarware (even if they did not understand it) these are lessons to be learned. Not games to be played.

No, we cannot erase or correct the numerous horrors or injustices that occurred over the centuries from one people upon another, but we can learn from them. That is the failure of the premise of AO1946.

Your argument about China furthers mine. You cannot erase, whitewash or ignore history or reality. The only solution is to learn from it and not repeat it.

[Bee1976]

I understand that as a German you want an outcome where your country wins,

Uhm, i think you got me wrong I never said that. As a german im really really really happy that we lost that war!
As a gamer i want to win my games
and it doesnt matter if i play the russians, the americans, the british or the germans, i want to win the games i play

And if there is a "polish operations" for PC2 i want to win with the polish army against the german wehrmacht

[Retributarr]

I understand that as a German you want an outcome where your country wins,

Uhm, i think you got me wrong I never said that. As a german im really really really happy that we lost that war!
As a gamer i want to win my games
and it doesnt matter if i play the russians, the americans, the british or the germans, i want to win the games i play

And if there is a "polish operations" for PC2 i want to win with the polish army against the german wehrmacht

I AGREE!!!... I AM OF THE VERY SAME ATTITUDE AND MINDSET!!!

[DefiantXYX]

Like I already said, it is just a game. I mean you click with your mouse and kill people in this game. Even worse in shooter games, you directly hit and kill other humans. If you got a problem with germany winning in a ahistrorical setting you should drive all your units back in the first poland scenario and just give up.
But it dont agree with it doesnt matter who you are playing. If you play Fifa you pick your favorite teams, or some cool teams. Playing the russians in PC2 it just not funny. And it cant really work?! You start with 500 cores slots and you win a scenario when you only lose 400 units by killing just a few enemies? The game needs completly new mechanics for a russian campaign.

[kverdon]

You are right that without a rewrite you could not do Soviet Corps 2 but given the current historical and economic environment it’s not likely to happen. Militant Russia is unlikely to sell with western audiences did to the current militant megalomaniac and give the sanctions you can’t sell it in Russia. An Allied Corps, maybe following a British/Polish/French/US corps, could have been done but its not what the dev’s wanted in their fantasy verse.

[kverdon]

You are right that without a rewrite you could not do Soviet Corps 2 but given the current historical and economic environment it’s not likely to happen. Militant Russia is unlikely to sell with western audiences due to the current militant megalomaniac in Russia and given the sanctions you can’t sell it in Russia. An Allied Corps, maybe following a British/Polish/French/US corps, could have been done but its not what the dev’s wanted in their fantasy verse.

[DefiantXYX]

Ok, I am finally done with AO 1946.
First of all let me say thanks to all the people who are creating this game and the DLCs. PC2 is definately in my all time top 10 of all PC games. I played thousands of hours and I am quite sure there will be more playtime, also thanks to the great modders.

To 1946:
+ Maps: Like I always use to say I want a map before any mission. Since we were entering the ahistorical part there are more maps, because you cant know whats going on from history. This time there are even some story maps and story missions. Nice!
+ Story: There is a lot of crazy and stupid stuff but hey, you guys created not only new mission, you also created a completly new history, starting in 1943 to 1946.
+ Graphic effects. The atomic bombs are just looking amazing!

But now I have to come to some negative aspects:
- The biggest problem is, I played like what, 20 missions?! I could not name you more than 3-5. After the landing part it is just always the same. You are starting left, going right, just kill everything. Done. Was really boring most of the time.
- New technologie. You get everything in the first mission. There is nothing to upgrade, nothing to achieve. You can use the same army all the time, there is no reason to change anything. And most of the new stuff looks weired, like alien stuff.
- Atomic bomber. Just op. We already talked about it.
- Balance. There is no balance. I am quit sure there only way to make this game interesting again lets say from 1945 to 1946 is a soft reboot. Pick some of your core units and start to get new units. My core fore is just overpowered. Even playing DvG doesnt change anything. ALl my units are nearly at max. overstrength, so you just can use your tanks and overrun anything. If its 15 vs 20 just use a bomber or artillery first, then overrun. Land Cruisers make it even worse. 2-3 nice heroes and you can overrun an entire army, since you have 10 ammunition! In some mission I had problems filling up all the core slots.
Even the last mission was rather a pain because of that stupid urban fighting, but not challenge. It was done after ~15 oder 45 turns. Every mission is just a massacre.
- Bonus objetives and elite objetives. Boring. Just boring and always the same. And its not like you have to be smart to achieve them. "Kill the enemy landcruisers" ==> wtf. Is it even possible to win these missions without killing it? There is nothing "elite", it is just kill everything. I dont get it, the elite objectives in 1944 were amazing, how could you screw this up this time? And whats is the reward for the elite objetives? 2 heroes and the atomic bombers, but you get this in the first missions. After that you just get crap. Why should you run units that look ugly or are even worse than you standard units?
Because of the bonus objetives the new "game mechanis" do not work. Doest matter if you repair some units for 25k in a single mission, if you get 30k by just capturing stuff you would have captured anyways.

- Story. I dont want to go too deep into it, but...we are overrunning everything until Mansteins dies and everything is fucke up? Wtf, you lose a whole war just because of one man? What is with us? We are the greatest m***** in this war and we are still a little general? That just doenst make sense. 2-3 maps later the USA is screwed, just because the lost Patton. That is just silly writing tbh.
- Sea fights: We never get the chance for a real sea fight, like in sealion. Everything is scripted, we cant even control the ships.

Finally AO 1946 might be the worst DLC at all. Its most of the time boring, it feels like you play panzer corps 2 in a light mode. You dont have to manage your army, think about tactics, think about new units, heroes, manage your prestige. It is just kill, kill, kill. There is not a single situation when you have to think about a way to crack a stronge defense. I remember kursk 1943. I was just watching the map: how can I get through there? Where is the weakness? If I use a combination of artilelry, bombers, tanks and anti-tanks plus my strongest heroes, it might work. Or you just use an atomic bomber....strange, even the last battles vs the russians very more satisfying.
I already said it before, the whole campaign feels like Game of Thrones. 80% were just amazing, one of the best stuff I have every played. Starting slowly in 1944 and getting worse from year to year the end is sometims horrible. Right now I see no reason to play 1946 again. Maybe in some years, with another playthrough.

[kverdon]

You have some good points. AO1946 really does not need to exist. It was a baseless money grab. The producers wanted a cheap add on. The Dev’s seem seduced with 1940’s German Tech along with a little “What if” German National Socialism love. What you get is this hot mess. They could have taken the time to do another, more rewarding, series, but we got this German Tech porn show instead.

[kverdon]

You have some good points. AO1946 really does not need to exist. It was a baseless money grab. The producers wanted a cheap add on. The Dev’s seem seduced with 1940’s German Tech along with a little “What if” German National Socialism fantasy. What you get is this hot mess. They could have taken the time to do another, more rewarding, series, but we got this German Tech porn show instead. I liked Wagner, and was happy when he came back but his endless “For Germany,For Victory” makes me want to puke. You’d think that what he and his family had been through in the narrative, he’d had learned his lesson.

AO1946 also flies is the face of Rommel’s own writings. He knew that neither Germany or even the Soviet Union could compete industrialy against at the US/UK so why would he prosecute a war against them and not negotiate a peace.. As for those that want a “Win”. How does an ending that does subjugate 2 million German Women to rape by marauding Soviet soldiers not constitute a win?

[DefiantXYX]

I liked Wagner, and was happy when he came back but his endless “For Germany,For Victory” makes me want to puke. You’d think that what he and his family had been through in the narrative, he’d had learned his lesson.

That is?
I dont know why but you are somehow to deep in the history. You are judging from your current 2023 point of view.
Wagner is just a loyal soliders, fighting a war. He learnt the lesson, that war is not just a funny game, when you are winning all the time. He almost died. After germany got a far better leadership with Rommel and all the nazi monsters seem to be gone for him it is worse again to fight for germany and bring it in a position, to make a fair peace.

[88Flak]

I liked AO46. Big maps, many units and massive tank battles. Hits on what I think is the core of this game. True, it is complete fantasy but knowing that going in helped me suspend reality and enjoy the campaign.

I found it better than AO45 which started great but made a really weird detour in the middle and seemed to be looking for a way to wrap things up. And way better the AO44 where you ran around battling former allies who were tremendously up gunned instead of contesting the Soviet’s northern offensive.

My first play through felt a bit like AO43 NH path which is one of my favorites.

The negative is that there is still a lot of meat on the bone. The ending was entirely too rushed and could’ve be significantly expanded. It would not make sense to do this in a single campaign so there might be a need for a 1947 and possibly 1948 to do it right. I’m sensing there might not be an appetite for so much non-historical campaigning.

Also, found some of the American air units to be really weird. More like UFO units. If they would have been viable designs, I would think we would have seen some deployed in the 1950’s.

Overall, well done.

I’m looking forward to a second play through to see how my initial opinions hold up.

[netbuster21]

I dislike the plot where i am. I protect Manstein as good as i can and achieve the Elite target, but it doesn´t have any impact. At Wichita 2 all enemy units are killed by turn 10 and all target hexes are under control. But due to my "performance" the hole front has to retreat. This was better solved in earlier campaigns, when the retreat of the front was due to other theatres or the danger of cutting off. But if you are able to kill every enemy unit in half the time and you don´t feel any real treat (okay, atomic bomber flew to my double support overstrength AA with AA trait), then it´s a shame that the setting is developing in such way.

[DefiantXYX]

Yeah, its very poor storytelling. Maybe we will have this in pz3. The game will be smart enough to detect your progress and create an individuel outcome of a mission.

[Retributarr]

Yeah, its very poor storytelling. Maybe we will have this in pz3. The game will be smart enough to detect your progress and create an individual outcome of a mission.

"I favor that line of thought!"... Yes!... one should Not be "Penalized" for "Not Achieving" a 100% satisfactory mission completion. Instead!... a cost or loss of prestige points or now missed-out-promotions or a lower quality of accessible "Hero-Candidates",.. or an imposed limited restriction on access to the latest equipment... or some other such-like adverse penalty could be imposed instead... while still leaving the Player the ability to continue the Campaign... without being forced to "Quit!".

However... "Awesome Victories"... can and should change all of that!... by... for example reinstating those recinded full Promotions or the lost access to the latest equipment in quantity etc... these previous reverses could now be restored!.