More thoughts on Oil

PSP/DS/PC/MAC : WWII turn based grand strategy game

Moderators: firepowerjohan, rkr1958, Happycat, Slitherine Core

uxbridge
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Sweden

More thoughts on Oil

Post by uxbridge »

???We have introduced Oil as a separate Resource in the game. Oil is collected and stored on national basis. A nations Oil Production is determined by its Oil Field values on map and a country specific Off-Map Oil Production. Example: Germany Has 20 Off-Map production and owns Romania which has an Oil Field worth 8 Production Points. Germany gets 20+8=28 Oil Points per turn. Different unit types have different oil consumption levels and they consume oil points when u order them to move, attack or intercept hence there will be no oil consumption when defending against attacks. To be able to move attack or intercept with an oil consuming unit, its nation needs sufficient oil. Units may still use the rail redeployment even if they are out of oil.???

Excellent decision! Oil was without parallell the most important resource of the WWII, and since it had so significant an effect on ground as well as air and naval operations, having it as a separate resource is as vital as differing industry and manpower.

One word of warning, though. When playing HOI (I can??™t remember what version it was [it might even have been during BETA], and it might have been adressed by now) emptying your oil pool ment an immediate stop for all units consuming fuel. This created an almost ridiculous situation, where a victorious army was not only suddenly brought to a general halt all along the front, but where all the fuel-consuming parts of the entire war machine suddenly just died. At this point, needless to say, there was no reason for a player to continue.

To avoid this sudden collapsing of the house of cards, I would suggest some buffer functions:

First, make all units capable of a minor degree of movement, even if they??™re out of oil. It could be one half, or one third, of it??™s ???supplied??? status. They should also still have the ability to fight, but maybe with the same strength as if the were out of normal supply.

Secondly, give the player a way to turn his oil pool on and off the same way he would a tap. That way he could shut the flow off, move a couple of naval units and maybe a base changing air unit in ???no-fuel-state??? without losing oil points, or he may move some armour or mechanized units from the front line to a point of rail transfer on a secondary front. Of course, during this ???off-movement??? the units movement allowance is also very low. Then, turning to more important matters, the tap could be turned on again, and the player could move his shock units to attack and his air units to their chosen targets consuming oil points normally.

Thirdly, make the units consume oil points in relation to their acctual actions. If, as an example, an armoured unit have a movement allowance of 5; moving it only 2 hexes would not lead to any consumption, whereas moving it 3 to 5 hexes would. This way the player doesn??™t have to turn the above tap on and off as often. He has the choice of working with option 2 or 3 as the situation or his taste of playing dictates.

Understand me correctly; the above mentioned ideas is just only ideas. If the developing team finds something in them worth considering, they have to compare it to their own designs, programing and wishes how to make the game. :)
IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13558
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Post by IainMcNeil »

We could make units without oil, which require it, behave as if they are out of supply. basically move one, hex, reduced effectiveness.

We plan to give every major nation a basic oil level, so you will always have a little oil to move some troops each turn, so you will never get this wall where you lose the game.

Rail redployments do not use oil, so you will still be able to deploy units from one front to other without oil reserves to a limited degree, depending on your rail capacity.

We wanted to keep it simple and not break down half moves to use less oil. It was an idea we considered, but then we need a way to show the player how much fuel every move and attack uses and we felt it cluttered the UI and was an unnecssary complexity.

We'll have to see how the ideas work in testing though!
uxbridge
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Sweden

Post by uxbridge »

I see you have already considered this. Good. It puts my mind at ease on most points.

It would still be nice, though, if there was an option to save at least a certain amount of oil points from general consumption. They could come in handy in the upcoming summer offensives. :)
redan
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:08 am

Post by redan »

What oil base for the United States? How about infinite? Britain has access to the gulf and Iran, as do the Soviets. The only folks with oil troubles are the Nazis and fascists. Once the allies have Sicily and any part of Italy, the pygmy Roumanian Oil fields are bombed to oblivion. Hitler was obsessed by oil, hence his Roumanian and Chechnian/Baku madness. If the Germans want oil, they must take Suez. Until the Russians come in against them, The Germans should have a good supply of oil. If no treaty with the russians, then the Germans should be nothing short of crude :roll: I think over emphasizing oil, especially for the allies, is wrong.
uxbridge
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Sweden

Post by uxbridge »

You're quite right about Germany and her want for oil. In any game Germany will be sort of an "engine" for the first couple of years, dictating were the different fronts will be. The country was painfully short on oil, therefore oil is also important in any game.

In 1940 Germany produced 2,1 million tons of crude oil. These sources lay in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Austria. Adding to this was 3,3 million tons of syntetic fuel. The German estimation of the need for staying on war footing for a longer period was between 12 and 20 million tons crude oil per year. The Germans therefore had to resort to imports. The same year they got 2,1 million tons of crude oil and 2,9 million tons of fuel from Romania, and 0,9 million tons of crude oil from the USSR. (Since about 20% of the crude oil weight falls off in the process of becoming fuel one might say that 800 kilo fuel [normal or syntetic] equals one ton of crude oil, but let's treat it all equal not to mess things up here.) What it all comes down to, however, is that Germany just managed to get her hands on the very minimum of what she needed, and was far from what the German economists thought sufficient. During the 1941-43 period the syntetic oil production was gradually raised to 5,7 million tons annually, but it was still not satisfying. The loss of Ploesti fields would obviously have been disastrous for Germany. Therefore, oil is important, and should be treated as a separate resource, as have been decided.

When it comes to the Allies, they were, as you say, much better off. UK had no sources of oil on the British isles, but could get an unlimited quantity from the USA, providing the convoys could carry it and the Americans was prepared to give it them. Of the roughly 300 million tons of oil produced in the world annually in the early forties, about 60% came from the USA.

USSR had a production of about 30 million tons, most of it coming from the Caucasus, with 22 million tons from Baku alone. More than 70% of this oil was transported from Caucasus via rail, pipeline or ships on the Black Sea, with the remainder going on Volga in barges. Rail, pipe and barges passed Stalingrad, or close to it, on it's way. If this city had been taken, more than 4/5 of the USSR:s oil production would have been lost. The Germans had no means to transport this oil to Germany if they had taken the oilfields, but the immediate effect on the Red Army would have been profound.

The last sources important in the game is the 10 million tons in Iran, 4 million tons in Iraq and slightly less than one million in Egypt. These were controlled by the British, albeit the countries were not, and had their own refineries. If the Germans had captured these fields, or somehow could have found the means to deprive them from the British, the Commonwealth forces in the Middle and Far East would have had grave problems.

It's getting late here in Sweden, and I'm getting a bit tired. But, to round it off, I think some of these considerations should have an influence on the strategies of the game.
Last edited by uxbridge on Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
SMK-at-work
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:35 pm

Post by SMK-at-work »

And don't forget Spain - Spain imported most of its oil from the USA - one of Franco's demands for joining the war was that Germany supply its army with oil - something that Hitler baulked at, for good reason - they didn't have that much!

Keeping the oil in the Mid-east was a fairly major strategic concern for the allies too - perhaps the US could have ramped up to supply the whole allied oil requirement, but it didn't have to, and so has more resources to put elewhere.
joe98
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 11:11 pm

Post by joe98 »

UTILISE COMPUTING POWER TO ENHANCE WARGAMING


Generally I like the idea of Resources.

As your territories expand you have more resources. I would hope it??™s not restricted to oil. 3 resources would be enough. Food production and manufacturing would be the other 2.

Given I have 100 ???points??? to spend on resources, I might choose to spend 50 on oil, 20 on food and 30 on manufacturing.

Having spent the ???points??? I could then tweak the production.

As my territories shrink, I have less ???points??? to spend on resources and production suffers.


UTILISE COMPUTING POWER TO ENHANCE WARGAMING
redan
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:08 am

Post by redan »

Just capturing an oil area doesn't mean you have oil. The Japanese never got the Indonesian fields running-- heck, they never put out the fires.

My concern is not with supply, but multiple supply concerns in computer games. The axis faces stupendous supply problems, and in fact were completely and totally defeated.

At the end of WWI the Germans occupied large areas of the East, and a fat lot of good it did them. Just occupying territory doesn't give you access to resources there. Armies shoot the cattle and slaughter the chickens and yum yum it's all gone in two days. If they have the means to run oil fields or mine plutonium it means they already had these industries and they didn't. Gold is worthless if you don't have gold miners. :wink:

I want these remarks to be taken as well intentioned general speculation. I wish Slitherine all success, and I enjoy Troy & Spartan immensly!
IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13558
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Post by IainMcNeil »

The Allies will of course have much more plentiful supplies of oil.

Currently when a resource is captured it slowly repairs itself over time. One alternative we've discussed is to force the player to manually expend resources to repair damaged cities and resources to get them producing.
uxbridge
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Sweden

Post by uxbridge »

Having a conquering nation to pay for repairing a destroyed resource may be a good idea. Then make sure that it is more expensive (and takes longer) to repair a far-away resource than one close to the repairing nations own economy. In case of Germany it would therefore be more expensive to resurect a resource in the Ukraine than one in Poland. This would reflect the fact that distant resources took a strain on available communication resources.

I liked the idea that convoys were acctual ships moved about. If, as example, Germany capture Sweden, do Germany have to move the resource points by ship, or do the resources automatically reach Germany in an abstract way?
jon_j_rambo
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:08 pm

Post by jon_j_rambo »

Don't get caught up in features too much. Playability & fun is what I'm looking for!
-Legend
uxbridge
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Sweden

Post by uxbridge »

Yes, but that was my main point. Since the game seem to use freighters as a way of moving goods from USA till UK, for an example, it would be very natural to treat captured resources that can only be brought home by sea in the same way. Easier for the player.
SMK-at-work
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:35 pm

Post by SMK-at-work »

Perhaps giving a conquering player a choice of whether he wants somethign repaired or not, then leaving the repairs to the AI to actually do might be the way to go. Then there can be a list of facilities that are and are not being repaired, how long they have to go, how much resource their repair is using, and players can move resources from 1 list to the other - starting or "freezing" repairs as they wish.
lameduck
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:56 pm

Post by lameduck »

I see you guys have been very busy , Iain ;). This game looks like a lot of fun :).
dulak
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:51 pm

Post by dulak »

iainmcneil wrote:The Allies will of course have much more plentiful supplies of oil.

Currently when a resource is captured it slowly repairs itself over time. One alternative we've discussed is to force the player to manually expend resources to repair damaged cities and resources to get them producing.
I like the idea of a city or resource slowing repairing itself overtime; then spending resources on it. Gives you more of a reason to keep a given hex and to keep it and also takes out some of the monotenous gameplay (ie repairing resources etc ... better to focus player attention on the war :)
jon_j_rambo
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:08 pm

Post by jon_j_rambo »

Yes, careful with micro management features.
mrdozer2379
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:06 am

Post by mrdozer2379 »

wow this game is amazing. Also sorry for some of my earlier post because i have been busy and didnt get around to reading enough.

I like the oil idea but was wondering instead of out of map oil why not oil resource in germany? not as real oil but the production of it? To cut off oil totally would be horrible for germany but isnt that the point?

What about the ability to buy oil from an outside hex? that allies can maybe cut off?

The pay to repair idea i think should be an option so have both as i see the pros and cons of both.

Also if oil is seperate are there any other stuff seperate meaning minerals?
firepowerjohan
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1878
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 7:58 pm
Contact:

Post by firepowerjohan »

We have

Production Points (i.e money)
Manpower
Oil


no minerals, sorry ;)


Placing Oil Fields or refineries inside Germany is not necessary. When Allies get that far into Axis land then the Allied victory is certain with or without German lack of Oil.
mrdozer2379
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:06 am

Post by mrdozer2379 »

yes but the oild idea in germany is for the UK to be concerned with bombing germany so they have no oil at all?
firepowerjohan
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1878
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 7:58 pm
Contact:

Post by firepowerjohan »

mrdozer wrote:yes but the oild idea in germany is for the UK to be concerned with bombing germany so they have no oil at all?
But by then, all is lost for Germany anyway. The production ratio Allies vs Axis is HUGE. Regardless if Allies had bombed German Cities and refineries it would only be a matter of time before they won.
Post Reply

Return to “MILITARY HISTORY™ Commander - Europe at War : General Discussion”