Ambush

[angel42052]

The manual does not have an lot of info on how ambushes work. Could someone fill me in on the details?

[melm]

In game, it literally means your opponent's troops coming out of somewhere you don't expect. No stat buff or nerf.

[Athos1660]

The manual provides the rules. Then you can use the Editor to figure them out through examples

There are two things when it comes to ambush :
- Line of sight (LOS), ie hiding behind woods, hill… (see the cav on the second pic below hidden in the grey zone)
- hiding in woods, building, swamp.

Here is where the Blue army is :



Here is what the red army sees far away :
Cavalry (light and non-light) can’t hide at the edge of the woods, but infantry can :



When the red army comes close (within 2 squares), the enemy units at the edge of the woods appear :



Units hidden deep in woods will appear only within one square :

(1) where the blue army is :


(2) what the reds can see :





Only light and non-light infantry can hide in buildings and swamp, not cavalry :





But these infantry units will be revealed within 2 squares :





Please correct any mistake or oversight.
Hoping it will help.

(edit)
This is also a useful LOS tool in game.

[kronenblatt]

The manual provides the rules. Then you can use the Editor to figure them out through examples ...

Really useful answer on ambush: thanks! Will add to the quick question sticker thread on rules.

[Athos1660]

You're welcome. btw creating examples with the Scenario Editor and playing them in Hotseat mode using the LOS tool and undo is really very useful : you can put and move your units here and there and see what the enemy will detect.

[Athos1660]

Another aspect of ambush is related to disordering terrains and unit types, why hiding a given unit type in the middle of the woods, which unit types have an advantage in disordering terrains, attacking from a disordering terrain to open terrain and vice versa, etc (see manual about terrains and PoAs).

[angel42052]

This is fantastic stuff --- Thanks!

Is there some sort of POA advantage given to ambushing units? Do the ambushers get a free attack, etc.

[Athos1660]

Is there some sort of POA advantage given to ambushing units? Do the ambushers get a free attack, etc.

No. As in real life, ambushes create a surprise effect (for the opposing player or the AI) but don’t make ambushing units stronger. So it can help to charge the enemy’s flank, get a numeric advantage in some place of the open terrain all at once, attack an enemy unit with several ones, etc.

As mentioned above, the terrain where the attack takes place has of course an impact on the outcome. An ambush attack will involve disordering terrains such as swamps or woods, unless it happens in the open after the ambushing units had hidden in woods or behind a hill or a forest. For example, when Peltasts meet Samnite Foot...

1) ...in open field :


2) ...in woods :

[Athos1660]

That said, I have the feeling that there are fewer opportunities for ambushes and surprises in FoG2 than in Pike and Shot, as forest areas in the center of the map or traversing the map on one side seem much more scarce and sparse, which is a pity imho.

Nonetheless, hilly areas are still there.

[Jorgito78]

Here is where the Blue army is :



Here is what the red army sees far away :
Cavalry (light and non-light) can’t hide at the edge of the woods, but infantry can :

Sorry for bumping into this old thread (which really explains clearly hiding mechanics but just a small question:
As seen by the image, cavalry can't hide at the edge of the woods if the edge of the wood is on the enemy side, right? Or else, they are hidden, no?
I'm asking because the cavalry unit on the back edge of the wood seems to be hidden.
Could you clarify?
Sorry for my question but that is one of the thing that always makes me doubt if my units are hidden.

[Karvon]

Mounted troops can be hidden if they are more than one space into the woods. As you noted, and observed from your screen shots, mounted on the edges are not hidden, a common newbie misperception. Foot can be hidden on edges of woods as well as in marshes.

Karvon

[Ray552]

@Jorgito 78 - correct, in the example photos above, the cavalry units at the back edge of the woods are hidden, but only as long as enemy units don't have a line of sight (LOS) to them.

If the enemy were to move units to a position where they would have LOS to those cavalry units on the back edge, they would instantly spot them.

In heavily wooded or hilly maps (where enemy units could be hiding behind hills or ridges), it's always a good idea whenever possible to send light infantry or light cavalry to scout ahead - light infantry for inside woods, light cavalry to peek around hills or behind woods.

When deploying units for an ambush, use the "2" key when you click on the unit to see LOS from that location - if your unit is cavalry in woods, any square that is not shaded is a square where an enemy unit could spot your unit from.

If you want to be absolutely sure your cavalry is hidden from any direction unless the enemy is right next to them, place them in a square that is completely surrounded by woods, high enough hills, or built-up areas.

Of course, it's hard to set up an ambush if there is only one clump of woods or other concealing terrain on an otherwise relatively open terrain map - if your opponent is paying attention, when he sees your force is smaller than it should be, it's not too hard to figure out where the rest of your army is, particularly if a general or two seem to be missing.

If you're using only one unit to ambush, you'll probably get away with it, unless the opponent is counting your units and point costs.

[Jorgito78]

Thanks for the answer. And another question regarding LOS and hidden units: can a routed unit detect hidden units?
Example, I have foot units hidden in the woods. After an enemy unit is routed outside the woods and flees to the woods, to a space adjacent to my units, are my units spotted by the enemy? Or only non-routed units can spot hidden units?

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks for the answer. And another question regarding LOS and hidden units: can a routed unit detect hidden units?
Example, I have foot units hidden in the woods. After an enemy unit is routed outside the woods and flees to the woods, to a space adjacent to my units, are my units spotted by the enemy? Or only non-routed units can spot hidden units?

Good question.

As visibility is decided by the engine, and the engine does not know when troops are routed, (only when they are dispersed), I assume they will be spotted, and become visible to the whole enemy army.

Not ideal, but not something easily fixed.

[Jorgito78]

Thanks for the answer. And another question regarding LOS and hidden units: can a routed unit detect hidden units?
Example, I have foot units hidden in the woods. After an enemy unit is routed outside the woods and flees to the woods, to a space adjacent to my units, are my units spotted by the enemy? Or only non-routed units can spot hidden units?

Good question.

As visibility is decided by the engine, and the engine does not know when troops are routed, (only when they are dispersed), I assume they will be spotted, and become visible to the whole enemy army.

Not ideal, but not something easily fixed.

Ok. Thanks for the answer. I suspected so.

[kutayc]

That said, I have the feeling that there are fewer opportunities for ambushes and surprises in FoG2 than in Pike and Shot, as forest areas in the center of the map or traversing the map on one side seem much more scarce and sparse, which is a pity imho.

Nonetheless, hilly areas are still there.

agree, It would be nice to have more forest areas at traversings

[Jorgito78]

Thanks for the answer. And another question regarding LOS and hidden units: can a routed unit detect hidden units?
Example, I have foot units hidden in the woods. After an enemy unit is routed outside the woods and flees to the woods, to a space adjacent to my units, are my units spotted by the enemy? Or only non-routed units can spot hidden units?

Good question.

As visibility is decided by the engine, and the engine does not know when troops are routed, (only when they are dispersed), I assume they will be spotted, and become visible to the whole enemy army.

Not ideal, but not something easily fixed.

Sorry for the late reply (well, it's been three months ) but just wanted to confirm this. In fact, routed enemy units will detect hidden opposing units and they will become visible to the whole enemy army. Had it happen to me more than once.