Thracian Bronze Age/Dark Ages list for Swifter than Eagles

[vakarr]

I'm wondering if a Dark Ages/Bronze Age Thracian list can be incorporated into the Swifter than Eagles DLC, or should I just provide one to be downloaded? Currently, the Thracian list starts at 701 BC. Need one for 1500 BC - 700 BC, which would be pretty much the same as the later list but with chariots and with dark ages/Bronze Age allies

[Paul59]

Hi Chris,

It's an interesting suggestion, but what do we know of Thracian armies in that period? I would certainly be up for adding them to the next TT mod update, if Richard doesn't want to add them to the main game.

But why stop there? There could be a case for adding a Bronze Age Western/Central European list, but I suspect it's composition would be very speculative.

[vakarr]

We know about as much for the Thracian armies of that period as we do as others (excluding the Egyptians and Chinese who are perhaps the best documented). The evidence is that the Thracians didn't change their armies much from the bronze age to 700 BC. They built fortresses using the same type of walls as had existed at Mycenae and are mentioned as being allies of the Trojans. They continued to bury their kings in beehive tombs like the Mycenaeans right up to the third century BC. Around 1500 BC the indigenous peoples of Thrace were conquered by an Indo-European, horse-riding people. "These were Homer's hard-riding, magnificently equipped warrior Thracians, who had migrated to south-eastern Europe after the Greeks. Their tase for war, silver, gold, and fine horses stayed with them throughout ancient history."

Many weapons from the Chalcolithic and Bronze ages have been found in Thrace. The swords are quite remarkable and were known for being longer than other swords. They could be up to 78cm long and as thin as a modern rapier. The Iliad says that "Helenus then struck Deipyrus with a great Thracian sword" and Ovid says that Polydorus is "killed, disfigured with a great Thracian sword". These swords closely resemble the other bronze swords seen at other Bronze Age sites. Several moulds for bronze weapons have been found in Thracian areas... I'm going to end up re-writing my book "The Gods of Battle" if I keep this up, that was from page 57. The swords could be double-sided or single-sided but were all straight.

Pages 84-85: "It seems likely that the Thracian elite was very similar to that of Mycenae, while the common soldiers remained skirmishers and that this situation did not change until the Macedonian conquest of Thrace. Dark age warfare much more closely resembled Thracian warfare of the classical era, as it revolved around mounted aristocrats who used iron weapons. These led loosely organised infantrymen, armed with leather and wicker shields and spears, javelins, slings, and bows." There would also be large numbers of light and medium cavalry. Chariots are frequently depicted in Thracian art and Thracian lords were buried in chariots right up to the Roman period.

So we can assume that during the Bronze age, a few of the elite were well-armoured javelin-throwers and bowmen who rode in chariots. Others rode on horseback. They were accompanied by a mixture of Thracian medium foot armed with long spears and javelins but using the pelta and not tower shields. These were supported by missile men armed with javelins, bows, and slings.

There are already lists for Greeks, Mycenaeans, Minoans, and Skythians for the period. It wouldn't take much to add a Thracian list. The original (FOG tabletop) "Later Mycenaean or Trojan" list includes Thracians.

[rbodleyscott]

But why stop there? There could be a case for adding a Bronze Age Western/Central European list, but I suspect it's composition would be very speculative.

And we would not have suitable models, I think.

[rbodleyscott]

I'm wondering if a Dark Ages/Bronze Age Thracian list can be incorporated into the Swifter than Eagles DLC, or should I just provide one to be downloaded? Currently, the Thracian list starts at 701 BC. Need one for 1500 BC - 700 BC, which would be pretty much the same as the later list but with chariots and with dark ages/Bronze Age allies

It all depends on whether we have plausible models for them.

[vakarr]

Well I think that the conservatism of Thracian culture and the similarity of their elite to other elites of the time probably means that existing Thracian models could be used, in combination with other Bronze Age models.

By the way, I am surprised to see that the Hittites have impact foot and defensive spears but not heavy weapons like these

[rbodleyscott]

Well I think that the conservatism of Thracian culture and the similarity of their elite to other elites of the time probably means that existing Thracian models could be used, in combination with other Bronze Age models.

By the way, I am surprised to see that the Hittites have impact foot and defensive spears but not heavy weapons like these

We were trying to keep the number of new models down, hence avoided axe-wielding ? gods.

I had not seen that relief before. Aren't they wielding a khopesh in one hand? If so, it counts as a sword rather than a heavy weapon.

Anyway, if you would like to draw up a draft Thracian list, I will see about adding it.

[vakarr]

I'm no Hittite expert but they look like heavy weapons to me. So, this is the list - I've forgotten how to write lists, so there are probably quite a few mistakes. Not sure whether there is a Skythian or Cimmerian list for this period, but there doesn't seem to be. I thought that there should be enough chariots to mount the generals and that's all. "Swordsmen" would just be a medium infantry unit with sword and light spear. If unit 13 is Thracians with rhomphaias, then it shouldn't be there.

/ 1500-701 BC
[DarK_BRONZE_AGE_THRACIAN]
SIDEID 41
IDS_ARMY_BRONZED_THRACIANS
YEARS 1500 2299 // Note start era from 3000 BC
DEPLOYMENT Hellenistic
LONGMIN 19
LONGMAX 30
LATMIN 40
LATMAX 50
INTRO IDS_ARMY_INTRO_THRACIAN
SORTNAME Thracian1
MAPSET North
ALLIES1 E_GREEK
ALLIES2 E_MYCENAEAN
ALLIES3 SKYTHIAN/CIMMERIAN ?
ALLIES4 L_MYCENAEAN
ALLIES5 TROJAN

UNIT_0 Thracian_Peltasts
// fixed quantity for 2000 point army
MIN_0 8
// total (fixed + selection) quantity for 2000 point army
MAX_0 32
UNIT_1 Mycen_H_char
MIN_0 1
MAX_0 1

UNIT_2 Mycen_L_char
// fixed quantity for 2000 point army
MIN_0 2
// total (fixed + selection) quantity for 2000 point army
MAX_0 2

UNIT_3 Noble_Cavalry_Arm
MIN_0 1
MAX_0 1

UNIT_4 Noble_Cavalry_Prot
MIN_0 0
MAX_0 1

UNIT_5 Early_Cavalry
MIN_3 0
MAX_3 3

UNIT_6 Thracian_LH_Jav
MIN_3 2
MAX_3 10

UNIT_7 LH_Bow
MIN_0 0
MAX_0 2

UNIT_8 Thracian_Med_Jav
MIN_8 0
MAX_8 6

UNIT_9 Light_Javelins
MIN_4 3
MAX_4 16

UNIT_10 Light_Archers
MIN_5 0
MAX_5 4

UNIT_11 Light_Slingers
MIN_6 0
MAX_6 4

UNIT_12 Swordsmen
MIN_7 1
MAX_7 6

UNIT_13 Thracians
MIN_8 0
MAX_8 2

UNIT_14 Thracian_Spearmen
MIN_9 2
MAX_9 16

UNIT_15 Levies
MIN_11 1
MAX_11 4