Thoughts on SCW and AO1939

[QSertorius]

I recognize that these have been out for a while, but I just finished playing through them. I meant to do keep a detailed AAR, but I played right through too many scenarios, so that fell by the wayside.

SCW -

In general, I loved it! Getting used to not having any Core Infantry was a bit rough, but apart from that it was great. I ended up using my terrible Panzer I's like they were infantry that couldn't go into settlements.

I enjoyed the early challenge from having fighters that could not simply sweep the skies clear and it made me very grateful once I got better fighters.

The special rewards and bonus units were really nicely done and appropriate (even if it was a bit strange going to Gibraltar for 203mm artillery). With that said, apart from the Verdeja, I ended up sticking with only German units, so I never used my captured artillery or tanks.

I thought the order system for the Nationalist units worked quite well and was overall very pleased with it. There were a couple of times that units did strange things, like cross to the enemy side of the Ebro to get to an objective on my side, but apart from that, I liked it.

1939 -

In general, I did not like it nearly as much. First, I will say what I did like: I liked the Czech mission. I liked that part of it was set in the West. This made for a nice look at a campaign which is neglected. And the scenarios were pretty solid here. I found them interesting and well-designed. I didn't use any of the captured French tanks, but I enjoyed the fact that I could capture them.

Warsaw was one of the best maps thus far. I ended up adding some units to it to increase my challenge, but it is one I could legitimately see playing over again just to see if I could do better. I thoroughly enjoyed Warsaw.

What I hated, however, were the missions against the Russians and the late campaign Russian rewards. I would have immensely preferred another mission or two against Poland over missions against Russians. And, while I recognize that players might not like the rewards from Poles, I was really disappointed with the totally OP Russian rewards. A squadron of IL-2s? 35 KV-2s? These both really bothered me. It just jumped completely off the plausibility track. I'd rather have had a chance at another good hero than some totally implausible and OP units.

Just my thoughts. On the whole, I enjoyed 1939 enough to purchase 1940 and I will start it as soon as I get some free time. Hopefully I will have the chance to do a proper AAR for at least some of the missions.

PS - I forgot to mention: I really like the free armored train. That's a fun unit. It would be nice to put an extra range/ammo hero on it and then something like Double Attack.

[Grondel]

A squadron of IL-2s? 35 KV-2s? These both really bothered me. It just jumped completely off the plausibility track. I'd rather have had a chance at another good hero than some totally implausible and OP units.

Why do u think they are "implausible and OP"? i usually don´t use them because they are way inferior to what germany has available at that point.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

A squadron of IL-2s? 35 KV-2s? These both really bothered me. It just jumped completely off the plausibility track. I'd rather have had a chance at another good hero than some totally implausible and OP units.

Why do u think they are "implausible and OP"? i usually don´t use them because they are way inferior to what germany has available at that point.

sers,
Thomas

Implausible: the KV-2 was never used in very large numbers, even by the Soviets. The notion that the Finns captured enough of them that the Germans could put together a substantial number of them before the invasion of France in 1940 is just ridiculous.

Now, as far as being OP, since I did not use them in my campaign, I did not realize that they were not the monsters with extra range I encountered in the main campaign (where they were more like self-propelled guns and did considerable damage to me whenever they attacked). But still, in at least direct combat aspects, the KV-2 is better than my Pz-38t's. Yes, operational range, ammo, and other stats make the Pz-38t better in many regards, but in tank against tank combat it isn't close.

Screenshot 2023-06-01 231124.png (329.61 KiB) Viewed 1367 times

And the IL-2 is quite simply way better than the German alternatives. Again, the Germans are getting access to a unit that wasn't even fielded in large numbers by the Soviets at this point in time. And it comes in the form of a free unit. From finding a train with some parts to an operational squadron in days?

[Grondel]

Now, as far as being OP, since I did not use them in my campaign, I did not realize that they were not the monsters with extra range I encountered in the main campaign (where they were more like self-propelled guns and did considerable damage to me whenever they attacked). But still, in at least direct combat aspects, the KV-2 is better than my Pz-38t's. Yes, operational range, ammo, and other stats make the Pz-38t better in many regards, but in tank against tank combat it isn't close.

to the gaming aspect:
for the core-slot cost of 1 KV-2 i can field 2 t-38 in ur example, since u have Panzer-general trait.

2 t38 > 1 KV-2 under any condition. pretty much the same applies to the Sturmovoik. 4 core slots are just not worth what it can do.

to the historical aspect:
they were captured and used by Germans:
"Those captured and used by the German Army were known as (Sturm)Panzerkampfwagen KW-II 754(r)."

taken from this book:
https://www.worldcat.org/de/title/867146299

It deals mainly with the t-34, but has several chapters about other russian modddels that were used during WW2 by Germany after capturing them.

That a pilot can easily adjust to a new plane modell seems off from todays point of view, where u need a computer science-degree to just get the engine running on a plane.
During WW2 they were all very much alike. Learning to fly a diff modell once u learned how to fly a plane was a lot easier.

hope this helps.

sers,
Thomas

[DefiantXYX]

Events with special units have to be somehow unplausible. If you get boring stuff that you could also capture by just playing events become obsolet. That is a problem in the last years of the war, there is no foreign equipment you could use, everything is superior to the german stuff.
I dont see any problem with these units, the bomber requires too much core slots and the tank is very nice, but at I least I am running out of units within a few scenarios since AI like to attack those tank.

[QSertorius]

Now, as far as being OP, since I did not use them in my campaign, I did not realize that they were not the monsters with extra range I encountered in the main campaign (where they were more like self-propelled guns and did considerable damage to me whenever they attacked). But still, in at least direct combat aspects, the KV-2 is better than my Pz-38t's. Yes, operational range, ammo, and other stats make the Pz-38t better in many regards, but in tank against tank combat it isn't close.

to the gaming aspect:
for the core-slot cost of 1 KV-2 i can field 2 t-38 in ur example, since u have Panzer-general trait.

2 t38 > 1 KV-2 under any condition. pretty much the same applies to the Sturmovoik. 4 core slots are just not worth what it can do.

to the historical aspect:
they were captured and used by Germans:
"Those captured and used by the German Army were known as (Sturm)Panzerkampfwagen KW-II 754(r)."

taken from this book:
https://www.worldcat.org/de/title/867146299

It deals mainly with the t-34, but has several chapters about other russian modddels that were used during WW2 by Germany after capturing them.

That a pilot can easily adjust to a new plane modell seems off from todays point of view, where u need a computer science-degree to just get the engine running on a plane.
During WW2 they were all very much alike. Learning to fly a diff modell once u learned how to fly a plane was a lot easier.

hope this helps.

sers,
Thomas

I am not arguing that the Germans should never have captured KV-2's or Il-2's available. It's the timing that upsets me. Capturing a hangar of IL-2's in an early Barbarossa mission and deciding to field a squadron of them would not be nearly as implausible. Same for a similar situation with KV-1, KV-2, or T-34. It's the fact that I can find myself using them in 1939 or 1940 that bothers me.

[Grondel]

I am not arguing that the Germans should never have captured KV-2's or Il-2's available. It's the timing that upsets me. Capturing a hangar of IL-2's in an early Barbarossa mission and deciding to field a squadron of them would not be nearly as implausible. Same for a similar situation with KV-1, KV-2, or T-34. It's the fact that I can find myself using them in 1939 or 1940 that bothers me.

The point when equipment shows up in the game has several very "surprising" vehicles.

The KV-2 is not one of them. 210 were created and all during 1938/1939, before Russia gave up on the design because of several flaws.

The Il-2 Schturmowik had it´s first flight in oktober 39 and a 2nd one was build and flew in december 39.
The plane was there, the story tells that we "capture" a train with an experimental plane. Again the time is no issue. The plane existed.

Stuff that upsets me way more is that there is no Panzer III/IV during Fall weiß.
The 8.8cm Flak 37 Sfl. shows up during 1945 for the first time. In reality they were created before Fall gelb to have something to challenge the Char B1 and Matilda tanks. The last of them were destroyed in 1943.
...
one could go on and on with this but the KV-2 and Il-2 showing up there do not deserve any attention. Both existed at that time.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

I am not arguing that the Germans should never have captured KV-2's or Il-2's available. It's the timing that upsets me. Capturing a hangar of IL-2's in an early Barbarossa mission and deciding to field a squadron of them would not be nearly as implausible. Same for a similar situation with KV-1, KV-2, or T-34. It's the fact that I can find myself using them in 1939 or 1940 that bothers me.

The point when equipment shows up in the game has several very "surprising" vehicles.

The KV-2 is not one of them. 210 were created and all during 1938/1939, before Russia gave up on the design because of several flaws.

The Il-2 Schturmowik had it´s first flight in oktober 39 and a 2nd one was build and flew in december 39.
The plane was there, the story tells that we "capture" a train with an experimental plane. Again the time is no issue. The plane existed.

Stuff that upsets me way more is that there is no Panzer III/IV during Fall weiß.
The 8.8cm Flak 37 Sfl. shows up during 1945 for the first time. In reality they were created before Fall gelb to have something to challenge the Char B1 and Matilda tanks. The last of them were destroyed in 1943.
...
one could go on and on with this but the KV-2 and Il-2 showing up there do not deserve any attention. Both existed at that time.

sers,
Thomas

The campaign story supporting the IL-2 squadron, like Logjammin' in The Big Lebowski, is ludicrous. From one prototype captured on a train moving through occupied Poland, it's absurd for the Germans to get enough IL-2 Sturmoviks to form a flying squadron of them in 1939. The aircraft literally had its first flight on October 2, 1939. The aircraft wasn't even in wide production in the Soviet Union at that time. It's more plausible to get a German squadron of He 280's in 1940 than it is to get a German squadron of IL-2 Sturmoviks in 1939. The fact that this is even an argument makes me question my own sanity. Agree to disagree, I guess.

[Grondel]

The campaign story supporting the IL-2 squadron, like Logjammin' in The Big Lebowski, is ludicrous. From one prototype captured on a train moving through occupied Poland, it's absurd for the Germans to get enough IL-2 Sturmoviks to form a flying squadron of them in 1939. The aircraft literally had its first flight on October 2, 1939. The aircraft wasn't even in wide production in the Soviet Union at that time. It's more plausible to get a German squadron of He 280's in 1940 than it is to get a German squadron of IL-2 Sturmoviks in 1939. The fact that this is even an argument makes me question my own sanity. Agree to disagree, I guess.

since this is the only thing u mention, i asume that u agree with the rest...

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

The campaign story supporting the IL-2 squadron, like Logjammin' in The Big Lebowski, is ludicrous. From one prototype captured on a train moving through occupied Poland, it's absurd for the Germans to get enough IL-2 Sturmoviks to form a flying squadron of them in 1939. The aircraft literally had its first flight on October 2, 1939. The aircraft wasn't even in wide production in the Soviet Union at that time. It's more plausible to get a German squadron of He 280's in 1940 than it is to get a German squadron of IL-2 Sturmoviks in 1939. The fact that this is even an argument makes me question my own sanity. Agree to disagree, I guess.

since this is the only thing u mention, i asume that u agree with the rest...

sers,
Thomas

No, I don't agree with the KV-2 at all for a German unit in 1939.

You did bring up a great point, however...

What I do agree with is that the omission of the Pz III and IV is noticeable. I assume this was done to reinforce the point that Germany was heavily reliant on the captured Czech tanks for a considerable period.

To me, giving a unit of Pz III, Pz IV, and/or Flak 37 would all be more plausible as commendation rewards than the IL-2 or KV-2.

[Grondel]

No, I don't agree with the KV-2 at all for a German unit in 1939.

You did bring up a great point, however...

What I do agree with is that the omission of the Pz III and IV is noticeable. I assume this was done to reinforce the point that Germany was heavily reliant on the captured Czech tanks for a considerable period.

To me, giving a unit of Pz III, Pz IV, and/or Flak 37 would all be more plausible as commendation rewards than the IL-2 or KV-2.

nice to see that we are capable of agreeing.

when u are done with the AO-series give the PC1-remake mod a go and let me know ur thoughts on that one.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

No, I don't agree with the KV-2 at all for a German unit in 1939.

You did bring up a great point, however...

What I do agree with is that the omission of the Pz III and IV is noticeable. I assume this was done to reinforce the point that Germany was heavily reliant on the captured Czech tanks for a considerable period.

To me, giving a unit of Pz III, Pz IV, and/or Flak 37 would all be more plausible as commendation rewards than the IL-2 or KV-2.

nice to see that we are capable of agreeing.

when u are done with the AO-series give the PC1-remake mod a go and let me know ur thoughts on that one.

sers,
Thomas

For sure!

[Hyardgune]

I really enjoyed the French Saar Offensive missions. It's such an obscure part of WWII history. I hadn't actually known about it until I played AO1939, so this game taught me something.

[RVallant]

I enjoyed both.

SCW was interesting to play the capture game. I got superior victory at Ebro once, and have never managed it since. These days when I do Ebro, I do a circular envelopment along the north and just hold the middle mountains. This way, my prestige remains happy. I was fairly proud to get out of that mission with nearly 7k prestige, mainly because encircling them meant lots of surrenders and less 100bazillion artillery shots vs any static line.

'39 is interesting because I feel like we never have the numbers to have as much flexibility until Poland. I dislike Warsaw, I find it boring, it's too big and the force we have is so small, we just go sector by sector. I would have preferred if we just dealt with one super-dense sector instead of the entire city itself.

'39 Mine laying mission was interesting ~ I like that they give you an excuse to use a bridgelayer unit and I seldom ever use them tbh. I went in with a heavy infantry and tank force, not so many planes because I was squeezing in the 58 points I think it is.

Warndt Forest is my nemesis in '39, I always seem to run out of time to hold the defensive line, take the last objective AND raid St. whatever it is. The problem is that annoying no-suppression super hero that sits on it IMHO. Basically, I always secure all objectives but I can never do the raid.

[Grondel]

Warndt Forest is my nemesis in '39, I always seem to run out of time to hold the defensive line, take the last objective AND raid St. whatever it is. The problem is that annoying no-suppression super hero that sits on it IMHO. Basically, I always secure all objectives but I can never do the raid.

on the east side of the map u can sneak an infantry to the south east through the dense forest. There´s a small road going through it. once ur main force lures away the main defenders the infantry, maybe with assist of a 7.5cm, if u don´t have a strong hero combo, can raid the city and retreat through the forest they came through.

sers,
Thomas

[RVallant]

Warndt Forest is my nemesis in '39, I always seem to run out of time to hold the defensive line, take the last objective AND raid St. whatever it is. The problem is that annoying no-suppression super hero that sits on it IMHO. Basically, I always secure all objectives but I can never do the raid.

on the east side of the map u can sneak an infantry to the south east through the dense forest. There´s a small road going through it. once ur main force lures away the main defenders the infantry, maybe with assist of a 7.5cm, if u don´t have a strong hero combo, can raid the city and retreat through the forest they came through.

sers,
Thomas

I just finished it five minutes ago; One infantry wasn't enough, I had to throw 2 infantry, plus one tank (the verejda), plus a strat bomber, and we finally managed to encircle and destroy the Cavalry unit (it is immune to close defence, not suppression, so I was wrong there.)

Raided it and took out all the objectives, happy days, onwards and upward.

[DefiantXYX]

I dislike Warsaw, I find it boring, it's too big and the force we have is so small, we just go sector by sector. I would have preferred if we just dealt with one super-dense sector instead of the entire city itself.

That is the mission design, you should go sector to sector. But I agree, I also dont like this mission, at least when replaying it.
Its just annoying, so much entrechment, it is just a matter of time. You always get lazy at some points until suddenly the polish come out with 3-4 units just to kill on of your own units. I tried some different strategies, from west to east, from north to south, with bridge engenieers and so on...stays boring

[QSertorius]

I dislike Warsaw, I find it boring, it's too big and the force we have is so small, we just go sector by sector. I would have preferred if we just dealt with one super-dense sector instead of the entire city itself.

That is the mission design, you should go sector to sector. But I agree, I also dont like this mission, at least when replaying it.
Its just annoying, so much entrechment, it is just a matter of time. You always get lazy at some points until suddenly the polish come out with 3-4 units just to kill on of your own units. I tried some different strategies, from west to east, from north to south, with bridge engenieers and so on...stays boring

I rebuilt this map and fought it with an overstrength core force. I really enjoyed it that way.

[Hyardgune]

The first time I did Warsaw, I did a full on envelopment and it sucked. I just replayed it yesterday and noticed the 50-turn timer. I had a lot more fun this time. I enjoyed taking the time to carve up chunks of troops on the west side, isolate them and envelop them, then using the massive 10 rail allotment to quickly transition to the east side of the city and smash the two ready-made pockets there.

[RVallant]

The first time I did Warsaw, I did a full on envelopment and it sucked. I just replayed it yesterday and noticed the 50-turn timer. I had a lot more fun this time. I enjoyed taking the time to carve up chunks of troops on the west side, isolate them and envelop them, then using the massive 10 rail allotment to quickly transition to the east side of the city and smash the two ready-made pockets there.

I actually do the opposite.

I do the East first, because of the ready made encirclements, then you can punch south and cut through the south supply depot, creating another encirclement of the core objectives to the south. You can then grind out the small section in the centre-south, and completely bypass/ignore the north because the only objective needed is out by the fortification zone. So you can leave all the Polish defenders in the upper northern sector alone and win the day without even engaging them.