The worst feature in scenario design

[QSertorius]

I have very strong opinions about this and I know not everyone will agree with me, but I think the absolute worst feature in scenario design is to have units appear out of thin air without any warning in an area the player has already cleared.

Screenshot 2023-04-30 194550.png (997.65 KiB) Viewed 1354 times

I just absolutely hate this kind of implementation. If the units are going to come in, then they need to come in from the actual edge of the map. And the intelligence officer should tell you they are coming, or at least that they have arrived.

[Grondel]

if u manage to get a unit there by that time on that map u should play on a higher difficulty setting.
going there is not needed in the scenario and if u manage to get there next best thing to do is stealing a toddlers pacifier.

Ramp up that difficulty setting and u will stop running into stuff like that.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

Those are bonus objectives, right? So, the idea is that the player can achieve them on a reasonable difficulty level, right? I am playing the middle difficulty level (the one before the AI starts getting an accuracy bonus). I realized that the battleship and cruiser would blast my artillery to pieces if I tried to use it against the ships, so I used my artillery (with recon support) to blast a hole in the minefield. After that, it wasn't hard to run my Italians through the gap to take the towns. It just came as a shock to me that AI units would spawn in the middle of my array like that. That's poor. If they had all spawned East of the town, then it would have at least been plausible that they arrived from off the map.

Frankly, those units could have been there from the very beginning without affecting the overall scenario negatively. That might have prevented me from simply blasting a hole in the minefield (an obstacle that is not covered by fire is not an obstacle). Or they could have spawned a few turns into the scenario. As it was, I think they showed up at turns 12 and 15.

It's not exactly like I was blazing through this absolute grind fest scenario. They spawned twice while I was working on trying to sink that stupid battleship (which I finally sank on turn 18/18 - JU-52's were not very lucky at hitting it and it kept regenerating hit points). If the rest of the AO campaigns are full of grinding away at RNG HP barriers like Andy Dufresne getting out of Shawshank Prison, then I doubt I make it through it, despite the historical appeal.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Area behind a bunker-minefield-fortification line is meant to be enemy reinforcement zone, as already stated in the pinned topic of AO Q&A. Read more before you post.

[nexusno2000]

Those are bonus objectives, right? So, the idea is that the player can achieve them on a reasonable difficulty level, right? I am playing the middle difficulty level (the one before the AI starts getting an accuracy bonus). I realized that the battleship and cruiser would blast my artillery to pieces if I tried to use it against the ships, so I used my artillery (with recon support) to blast a hole in the minefield. After that, it wasn't hard to run my Italians through the gap to take the towns. It just came as a shock to me that AI units would spawn in the middle of my array like that. That's poor. If they had all spawned East of the town, then it would have at least been plausible that they arrived from off the map.

Frankly, those units could have been there from the very beginning without affecting the overall scenario negatively. That might have prevented me from simply blasting a hole in the minefield (an obstacle that is not covered by fire is not an obstacle). Or they could have spawned a few turns into the scenario. As it was, I think they showed up at turns 12 and 15.

It's not exactly like I was blazing through this absolute grind fest scenario. They spawned twice while I was working on trying to sink that stupid battleship (which I finally sank on turn 18/18 - JU-52's were not very lucky at hitting it and it kept regenerating hit points). If the rest of the AO campaigns are full of grinding away at RNG HP barriers like Andy Dufresne getting out of Shawshank Prison, then I doubt I make it through it, despite the historical appeal.

This is a design feature of the AO series - and is clearly stated as such. So no use crying about it.

That said, yes, it would be smoother if reinforcements came from off-table. Game engine doesn't support that, however (players being players, they would find ways to block reinforcement edges). Essentially, what AO does is clearly mark these areas as "off-table."

[Bee1976]

Area behind a bunker-minefield-fortification line is meant to be enemy reinforcement zone, as already stated in the pinned topic of AO Q&A.

This picture is from SCW 2nd or 3rd mission and in this case there is a way around those bunkers (where you get that juicy 21cm spareparts). so he isnt wrong, the first time i played this the reinforcements ruined my day aswell

That said, the bunkerzones are meant to be "risky-area" @OP, Kerensky just dont want you there hehe but Grondel is right aswell, players are players and i like to "abuse" those bunkers to train my camoflaged support. Its pretty easy OS bridge engineers in front of the bunker, and a camouflaged 15cm gun or anti-tank unit behind it and support medals start flying in.

i prefer the old pc1 way of enemy reinforcements, let the AI buy units in supply hexes. but there are many ways to play around around the pc2 system and even benefit from it.

[QSertorius]

Area behind a bunker-minefield-fortification line is meant to be enemy reinforcement zone, as already stated in the pinned topic of AO Q&A. Read more before you post.

I did read the Q&A. Most of this map, including multiple flags, are behind minefields. The Q&A says that there will never be basic objectives or rewards there, but there are capturable towns. It's not immediately obvious that the player is not supposed to go there. The example in the Q&A is obvious - 99 strength bunkers.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

Area behind a bunker-minefield-fortification line is meant to be enemy reinforcement zone, as already stated in the pinned topic of AO Q&A. Read more before you post.

I did read the Q&A. Most of this map, including multiple flags, are behind minefields. The Q&A says that there will never be basic objectives or rewards there, but there are capturable towns. It's not immediately obvious that the player is not supposed to go there. The example in the Q&A is obvious - 99 strength bunkers.

There is no bonus objective behind the line, it's just a town. The same already happened in Seville, the first scenario in SCW and the whole AO, where there are capturable locations behind it, if you didn't notice that. Briefing also never tells you to go past that line for something because there isn't any. It's just a town to decorate the map.

[QSertorius]

Area behind a bunker-minefield-fortification line is meant to be enemy reinforcement zone, as already stated in the pinned topic of AO Q&A. Read more before you post.

I did read the Q&A. Most of this map, including multiple flags, are behind minefields. The Q&A says that there will never be basic objectives or rewards there, but there are capturable towns. It's not immediately obvious that the player is not supposed to go there. The example in the Q&A is obvious - 99 strength bunkers.

There is no bonus objective behind the line, it's just a town. The same already happened in Seville, the first scenario in SCW and the whole AO, where there are capturable locations behind it, if you didn't notice that. Briefing also never tells you to go past that line for something because there isn't any. It's just a town to decorate the map.

Yes, and I also got annoyed by the feature on the first scenario. The expectation, coming from the main campaign, is that if the town has a flag, there's a reason to go flip that flag to your control, even if it isn't an objective. And that's particularly heightened when you know that there is at least one cache on some of these maps. The FAQ said there would never be a reward in an area you weren't expected to enter. And, perhaps there will end up being a superabundance of prestige in the campaign as a whole, but each little town with a flag is 50 prestige. That is a reward. Perhaps a small one to someone who has played through the entire campaign, but still a reward. Early on, there's every incentive to get every bit of it you can, particularly with the mechanic whereby infantry you cannot control cost you prestige when they do asinine AI things.

[QSertorius]

I have gotten considerably less annoyed as this campaign progresses. The Early Madrid mission handled this very well, I think. Wagner gives a nice warning that a large AI reinforcement army has arrived.

On the other hand, my AI allies' proclivity for doing dumb things is a bit frustrating. Like marching up the enemy side of the river to reach objectives.

Edit - for some reason it is not letting me post my screenshots.

[Ryba666]

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?, would be a better optionif you figth against 2nd French player army.

[nexusno2000]

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?, would be a better optionif you figth against 2nd French player army.

The AO series is full of wonky stuff...

[Retributarr]

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?, would be a better optionif you figth against 2nd French player army.

The AO series is full of wonky stuff...

where only option to kill is ariplane?
Actually!... i find that using "Heavy-Artillery" is the most effective solution to dealing with Charles de Gaulle'.

[Ryba666]

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?, would be a better optionif you figth against 2nd French player army.

The AO series is full of wonky stuff...

where only option to kill is ariplane?
Actually!... i find that using "Heavy-Artillery" is the most effective solution to dealing with Charles de Gaulle'.

I was playing AO 1940 with no arty perk.

[Bee1976]

On the other hand, my AI allies' proclivity for doing dumb things is a bit frustrating. Like marching up the enemy side of the river to reach objectives.

You can order your allies to attack, defend and hold position. Not the best way to control them, but i usually let them sit aound "holding position" until i formed a useful frontline. then i order them to attack, let them hold position and so on.
Even without "aux force" trait you are allowed to deploy some aux units in most scenarios and i highly recommend using italian infantry units.

they save you tons of orestige
its interesting to play around the '"ai friend" affix in SCW, but if you completly dislike your spanish friends controlled by AI there is a mod out there.

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?

Imagine playing 1940 on generalissimus with David vs Goliath and Uphill battle activated. Its still possible to handle this Nemesis. Some ways outside of planes:
- if i remember correct "shock tactics" hero work on him
- 8.8 AntiAir is useful aswell in antitank mode, to protect "bait" units or to simply hit him hard for example with a No Retaliation hero.
- even No Artillery Trait you can field existing and imported artillery units or use captured stuff.
- use traps, a trianlge with bait unit, provocateur and anti-tank gun is quite useful

and there is no real benefit in killing DeGaulle. Just beat him a little, he will run away, "heal" and come back. with proper recon you should spot him early and so you can prepare for him

I like the idea of Nemesis enemies, like elite objects later in the war. i would love an option to activate Nemesis enemies in every year (39, 41,42,43 and 44. And 45, i do not know if there might be a nemesis. if not 1945 aswell

[adiekmann]

For me, it was in a AO 1940, stupid overpowered Charles de Gaulle, where only option to kill is ariplane? Why?, would be a better optionif you figth against 2nd French player army.

You can also usually finish him off with an 8.8 FlaK gun in AT mode.

[adiekmann]

I actually liked the "Nemesis" concept. In SCW, he was too easy. Everyone immediately surrounded him and forced him to surrender. De Gaulle's hero suite was in response to that. I actually missed it in later DLCs. But like other things (looking at you, all-aircraft maps), it can be overdone.

[DefiantXYX]

"Nemesis" concept is great. If you dont play with crazy rules and you cant deal with them in the DLC you might have not understand the game mechanics at all. I really like that feature, nemesis units and elite objectives in all the DLCs would be great. There is an easy solution, just make another optionen "elite units on/off" and everynthing is fine for everyone.
But If fear there will be no revamp of the AO DLCs...