Need for greater historical accuracy for Indian Army Lists

[rbodleyscott]

Here is the revised Ghaznavid list:

Ghaznavid.jpg (158.69 KiB) Viewed 2128 times

[rbodleyscott]

Could you also take a look at the earlier Ghaznavid list from FOG2 Ancients (and the FOG2 Medieval Time Warp module), and advise re any tweaks to that.

Note that:

1) I won't be adding "Best-Equipped Cavalry" to this list, because there are currently none in FOG2 Ancients, and it would resurrect various issues re Sassanid cavalry that I don't want to re-raise.
2) I will leave the Bedouin/Arab cavalry in for the reasons stated previously.

Ghaznavid Early.jpg (162.41 KiB) Viewed 2127 times

[rbodleyscott]

I have also tweaked the number of average lancers in the Rajput lists again, to ensure that an entirely cavalry army can be fielded at all points totals, not just at 1200. (The lists do scale to the points totals, but with the previous unit maxima being a bit tight, some points totals did not allow a pure cavalry army).

Rajput 1050-1339.jpg (134.01 KiB) Viewed 2122 times

Rajput 1340 - 1500.jpg (130.47 KiB) Viewed 2122 times

[rbodleyscott]

Finally there is the earlier Rajput army list from FOG2 Ancients (and FOG2 Medieval Time Warp module).

I suspect you might want to suggest some tweaks to that, as it currently resembles the original unadjusted 1050-1339 list.

Rajput 650-1049.jpg (130.79 KiB) Viewed 2118 times

[newbiesoldat]

1. The revised Ghazvanid list (1041-1187) now looks perfect to me.

2. The 962-1040 Ghazvanid list should have at least 8 Armored Muslim Lancers if there is no Best Equipped Lancers, also I wonder if the possbile Arab cavalry can be depicted by the Muslim Light Horse unit here, your call. Finally increase the Turkish Light Horse to 6. Kitab i Yamini makes it clear that they valued armoured horse greatly.

3. Ok, this is my last input on the Medieval Rajput lists (1050 and 1340), and I'm sorry for not noticing this earlier, something so obvious. Instead of 2 Light Horse Archers, it'll be better to give them 2 Indian Horse Archers that have 'Some Armour'. The reason being that the Composite Bow was very expensive to maintain in India, and while it never was used as a primary weapon, it was used by the elite Rajput cavalrymen as a side arm.

4. So as far as the 650-1049 Rajputs are concerned, this really is the imperial Rajput period where for most of the period, approximately from 800-950, they ruled most of North India under the Gurjara Pratihara empire. The Pratiharas would decisively defeat the Arabs of Multan and Mansurah, reducing them to tributary status, and wage wars with the Rashtrakutas of the South and the Palas of Bengal in the Kannauj Triangle struggle. Al Masudi states that the Pratiharas had formidable cavalry, and were famous for the large numbers of horses and camels in their forces, as well as the fact that they maintained 4 standing armies apart from their feudal vassals. Hudud ul Alam states that even around the mid 10th century, as the Pratihara power disintegrated, they could muster some 150000 horsemen, based on all of that; 8 Light Horse, 2 Indian Horse Archers, 14 Indian Lancers and 8 Superior Indian Lancers.


Long Historical note on the Rajput description:

Maybe also change the description of the Rajputs, as while it is true that they did lose aplenty, they also won more, after all, they successfully defeated the Arab invasion, and reduced the Arabs of Sindh to pay tribute,while they did suffer Ghazvanid attacks in the early 10th century once the Pratihara empire had fragmented, they again turned the tide, beating back the Ghazvanids raids when the Chahamanas emerged in the mid 10th century. Even after the Ghurid invasion, while the other Hindu states of North India fell, the Western Rajput states such as Mewar, Vaghela Gujarat and Ranthambore, were able to defeat the Sultanate incursions and even take conquer lands at the Sultanate expense. The Sultanate triumph was linked more to the aggressive measures and reforms of Sultan Balban in the late 13th century, and the economic reforms of the succeeding Khilji dynasty in the early 14th century, leading to the Sultanate bringing nearly all of South Asia under its control, meanwhile also defeating the Mongols, and pushing them back all the way to Peshawar. The Delhi Sultanate at it's peak is said to have had the capacity to raise 370000 horsemen, though they only raised it once in such high numbers, and had to disband many after a year as per Tarikh i Firuzshahi. But even then by mid 14th century, the Rajputs under Mewar and smaller principalities such as that of the Hada Chahamanas were able to push back the Sultanate forces out of most of Rajasthan. Throughout the late 14th and all of 15th century the Rajputs increased in power with Mewar becoming the premier power in North India, and states such Jodhpur, Gwalior and others also emerging. Finally the Rajput dominance was ended in 1527 by the Mughals using the Ottoman artillery tactics. As such if we compare the Rajputs to the likes of Vijayanagar, which till the Taulava dynasty of the late 15th century, was often forced to pay tributes to the Bahamanid Sultans, or the weak Sayyid and Lodi dynasties of Delhi, I would defiitely not say that Rajput history is just defined by defeats and heroism. This is more of a modern Indian opinion that either 'celebrates' the Rajput 'resistance' and 'sacrifice', or looks at Rajputs like some pompous and foolish aristocrats who are always defeated, despite one often needing to skip centuries to look for such defeats. It is akin to saying that Mughal empire suffering defeat after defeat if we only focus on their defeat at the hands of Sher Shah in 1530s and then skip over a 100 years to cover their conflict with the Marathas which resulted in the loss of their empire. The Rajputs were an aristocratic martial class that founded many states or served as elites in many others, nothing more, nothing less, they were neither particularly 'heroic' nor particularly 'pompous' or foolishly 'honourable'.

[newbiesoldat]

Let me know if anyone finds this interesting as a campaign or a battle scenario.

Alauddin Khilji's conquests and wars

Brief background: Sultan Balban and later the Khilji dynasty undertook a large number of measures to establish arguably the one of the first war economy ever. The strength of the Qalb (Central Army) increased to 50000 regular horse and 200000 foot under Balban's reign, and this increased to 200000 horse and unspecified number of foot in Alauddin Khilji's reign, this is by the most conservative estimates.

Battles against the Mongols:

I have not included the Battle of Kili since that is already as a scenario in the game.

Battle of Siri, 1303: Alauddin Khilji had returned from the campaign of Chittor where his central army had suffered much losses, especially his horses, and the cavalry of his provincial Amirs (Commanders) from the Army of Hindustan had retired to their provincial estates after suffering losses due to campaigning in south India during the monsoon.
It was at this vulnerable juncture that the Mongols attacked. Taraghai, the Mongol commander, had come with some 30000 horsemen (3 Tumans). His own army was depleted, and even a few troops from his Army of Hindustan that could help him, were inexperienced in fighting the Mongols as they were not practiced in feigned retreats and ambushes of the Mongols.
Alauddin proceeded with mostly an infantry army (Crossbowmen, Bowmen and Spearmen, with 50 Armored Elephants and a small contingent of Cavalry, perhaps just his Household Ghulams and a few others from his Central Army. He took up a fortified position and dug ditches around his camp. The Mongols tried to break through into the camp, but were defeated, and not being able to take either Delhi or storm Alauddin's position, retreated back.

After this Alauddin Khilji established the institution of Silahdar cavalrymen, who were paid salaries, and a strong army of mostly these Silahdars was always stationed near Delhi. They were especially there to deal with the Mongols in case the Central Army and Army of Hindustan was busy in campaigns in the rest of India.

Battle of Siwalik, 1306: The Mongols again attacked, this time in 2 or 3 separate armies, one attacked the North, the area of Delhi and Amroha, while another attacked Siwalk in the south west. While we don't have details of the battles in the north, we know that in the Siwalik campaign, Alauddin sent Malik Kafur and Malik Tughlaq (also known as Ghazi Malik, and the future Sultan Ghiyausiddin Tughlaq) against them. The two Maliks did not directly confront the 30000 strong Mongol army, rather waited near an unnamed river bank, waiting for the Mongols to return parched, exhausted and laden down with plunder after a long march back from the arid Siwalik. As the Mongols arrived and were about to cross the river, the two Maliks attacked and defeated them, the Mongol prisoners were sent to Naraina fort in Siwalik to be executed, while their wives and children were sent to Delhi and sold as slaves. This was the last major Mongol invasion in the Khilji period.

Battles against the Rajputs and other Hindu states:

I'm only adding those about which we have enough details, not the ones that simply give the results.

War with the Ranthambore Chahamanas (1299-1301):

The Chahamanas (or Chauhans) of Ranthambore were a branch of the famous Shakambhari Chahamanas, the clan of Prithviraja III, the one who faced the Ghurids at Tarain. The Chahamanas had re-established themselves at Ranthambore under Vagabhata, winning it back from the Sultanate, and then had defeated consecutive Sultanate invasions in 1248 and 1253 . Vagabhata was succeeded by Jaitrasimha, who was then succeeded by Hammiradeva. Hammiradeva was hailed as one of the most powerful Rajput rulers of his time, with famous elephants and horses as fast as the wind as per Amir Khusrau. The cause of invasion was that Hammiradeva had given refuge to the renegade Neo Mulsim Mongols who had mutinied against the Sultanate and been given refuge by Hammiradeva.

Battle near Banas river

An invasion force had been sent by Jalaludin Khilji, Alauddin's uncle and the previous Sultan, however, he had retreated back after seeing the fort of Ranthambore, he again invaded but this couldn't reach even the fortress. Now Alauddin sent an army under Ulugh Khan to attack Ranthambore. Hammiradeva sent two commanders, Dharmasimha and Bhimasimha. They waited near the hills, and as the army of Ulugh Khan reached, Bhimasimha charged and seemingly defeated the Khilji army. The Chahamana army began celebrating, and were returning back when the Khiljis regrouped and suddenly attacked, defeating the Chahamanas and killing Bhimasimha. Dharmasimha though reached back to Ranthambore with his contingent intact, for which he was punished by Hammiradeva for not helping Bhimasimha. This account comes from the Rajput source, so it perhaps doesn't recognize the fact that maybe the Khilji army feigned a retreat as a tactical deception rather than an actual rout, and later struck the Rajput army when it had let its guard down, as the description seems to indicate this since rallying a routing army so quickly seems improbable.

Battle of Hinduvata pass

Ulugh Khan was reinforced and continued his march to Ranthambore, he encamped in the pass of Hinduvat. Here Hammiradeva had sent his army, led by his new General Rayapala, his brother Virama, a commander Jajadeva and his Mongol ally 'Muhammad Shah', and other Mongols who are named as Garbharuka, Tichara and Vaichara. As the sun was setting, the Chahamanas attacked from '8 directions', probably an exaggeration to express that they attacked from all sides. The Chahamanas defeated the Khilji army, and Ulugh Khan retreated.

Battle of Ranthambore

Ulugh Khan was reinforced with the army of Nusrat Khan, and the two generals this time crossed the hill, captured the town of Jhain, and proceeded to besiege Ranthambore fort itself. They gave the terms that Hammiradeva could either surrender the Mongol refugees, or give 400000 mohurs (gold coins) and his daughter to Alauddin for marriage as compensation. Hammiradeva rejected both the options and the siege began. Nusrat Khan ventured two close to the walls of Ranthambore, and supposedly a mangonel (it is called a maghrebi by Amir Khusrau) launched a stone at him which killed him. The Khilji army was in panic, and taking advantage, Hammiradeva attacked with some '200000 horse and foot', though this number is a wild exaggeration, probably to justify the Sultanate repulse since more grounded account of Tarikh i Mubarakshahi sets the Ranthambore forces at 12000 horsemena and an unspecified number of foot, not to mention Ranthambore's side was aound modern Netherlands and Belgium combined at the most. The Khilji army retreated to Jhain.

Siege of Ranthambore

Alauddin personally came with his own army and now led the siege. We don't have the full details from Alauddin's contemporary sources, but from Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq's time, we are told by Amir Khursau in his Tughlaqnama (I'm almost certain that this was the text) that Hammiradeva had again sallied out with his forces, and nearly broken the surrounding Khilji army, and it was only the contingent under Ghazi Malik, future Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq, who counter charged and defeated this attempt. This might be magnifying the role of the future Sultan, but at least we may assume that there was an attempt to break out which was foiled by some Sultanate reserve. The siege dragged on for a year, and when finally there was no provision left, the Rajput and Mongol women and children self immolated or were killed by their husbands, and later the Rajputs and a few remaining Mongols came out of the fort to figtht to the death.


Siege of Chittor (1303)

Mewar had emerged as a powerful state in the early 13th century, taking advantage of the Sultanate invasion of Gujarat and the weakening of the Chaulukya dynasty that had once controlled large parts of Mewar. The Sultanate forces had invaded Mewar in 1220's but after the initial success and the sacking of the city of Nagda, the Mewar forces under Jaitraismha counterattacked at Bhutala, and defeated the Sultanate incursion. The city of Nadol which had been taken by the Sultanate, fell in the hands of Jaitrasimha, though he lost it to the orginal rulers of the city, the Chahamanas.
Alauddin Khilji besieged the fortress town of Chittor, the capital of Mewar, with his Central Army. Khusrau's description states that he attacked the hill fort from two directions, and there was fierce fighting for a couple of months. Finally Alauddin installed his trebuchets that proved more effective than the 'Irradas' (kind of ballistae) of the fort, and battered down the walls. Tarikh i Firuzshahi only tells us that the conquest was diffcult on account of the hilly terrain, and the Sultan returned with many losses, especially in his cavalry after winning the fort.

Battle of Malwa (1305)

The Paramara Rajput kingdom of Malwa was one of the most power states in India, though had suffered internal confict and external attacks. At its height under Bhoja Paramara in the early 11th century, it defeated the rulers of Gujarat, Deccan and all others aorund it, even Kitab i Yamini of Mahmud admits to the Ghaznavids avoiding it, and retreating through difficult areas to retreat before its army arrive. However, it was at this period torn in civil strife between its Prime Minister Gogadeva (Koka in the Persian texts) and its King Mahalakadeva, and it had been raided and plunderd by Mewar and Ranthambore before the Khilji invasion. However, Malwa still, as per all Persian sources, had some 40000 chosen and permanent horsemen, and 100000 foot.

Alauddin Khilji sent one of his commanders, Ain ul Mulk, with a select force of 10000 cavalrymen. As per Amir Khusrau, Ain ul Mulk suddenly fell upon the army of Gogadeva, taking them by surprise. In the confusion, Gogadeva's horse got stuck in some mire, and he was shot to death by many Khilji archers. It is unlikely that he faced the entire Malwa army since the entire army would not have been concentrated all the time, and a second army was sent by the Paramaras, so we know it was probably not the full army, however, he still might have defeated a larger army by skillful surprise attack.
After this Ain ul Mulk was reinforced with a large army and continued his invasion. A second Malwa army was was defeated, and finally the Khilji forces besieged Dhar, the Paramara capital. A secret passage to the fortress was betrayed to them, and by a night attack, they finally defeated and killed Mahalakadeva, and the Paramara dynasty fell Though Malwa would remain turbulent, and most of it remained under refractory chiefs until the establishment of the Malwa Sultanate in 1406 and its expansion in the 15th century.

Note: Other Persian sources, apart from Amir Khusrau, only mention that a large army was sent to conquer Malwa under the command of Ain ul Mulk, so just in case multiple accounts can be read of this conquest.


There are of course other Khilji battles, but these are the only ones where some description was given.

In case this generates any interest, I can post some later Delhi Sultanate, Rajput, regional Sultanates and Vijayanagar battles, some of which have good details to flesh out a battle or even a campaign.

[rbodleyscott]

3. Ok, this is my last input on the Medieval Rajput lists (1050 and 1340), and I'm sorry for not noticing this earlier, something so obvious. Instead of 2 Light Horse Archers, it'll be better to give them 2 Indian Horse Archers that have 'Some Armour'. The reason being that the Composite Bow was very expensive to maintain in India, and while it never was used as a primary weapon, it was used by the elite Rajput cavalrymen as a side arm.

Here are the revised Middle and Later Rajput lists:

Rajput 1050-1339.jpg (137.22 KiB) Viewed 2006 times

Rajput 1340 - 1500.jpg (134.83 KiB) Viewed 2006 times

[rbodleyscott]

4. So as far as the 650-1049 Rajputs are concerned, this really is the imperial Rajput period where for most of the period, approximately from 800-950, they ruled most of North India under the Gurjara Pratihara empire. The Pratiharas would decisively defeat the Arabs of Multan and Mansurah, reducing them to tributary status, and wage wars with the Rashtrakutas of the South and the Palas of Bengal in the Kannauj Triangle struggle. Al Masudi states that the Pratiharas had formidable cavalry, and were famous for the large numbers of horses and camels in their forces, as well as the fact that they maintained 4 standing armies apart from their feudal vassals. Hudud ul Alam states that even around the mid 10th century, as the Pratihara power disintegrated, they could muster some 150000 horsemen, based on all of that; 8 Light Horse, 2 Indian Horse Archers, 14 Indian Lancers and 8 Superior Indian Lancers.

Here is the revised Early Rajput list:

Notes:
1) I have not replaced the light horse archers with the Indian Horse Archers unit in this list as that unit does not exist in FOG2 Ancients.
2) Should the compulsory minima be removed from the infantry and/or elephants for this period?

Rajput 650-1049.jpg (139 KiB) Viewed 2005 times

[rbodleyscott]

Maybe also change the description of the Rajputs, as while it is true that they did lose aplenty, they also won more, after all, they successfully defeated the Arab invasion, and reduced the Arabs of Sindh to pay tribute,while they did suffer Ghazvanid attacks in the early 10th century once the Pratihara empire had fragmented, they again turned the tide, beating back the Ghazvanids raids when the Chahamanas emerged in the mid 10th century. Even after the Ghurid invasion, while the other Hindu states of North India fell, the Western Rajput states such as Mewar, Vaghela Gujarat and Ranthambore, were able to defeat the Sultanate incursions and even take conquer lands at the Sultanate expense. The Sultanate triumph was linked more to the aggressive measures and reforms of Sultan Balban in the late 13th century, and the economic reforms of the succeeding Khilji dynasty in the early 14th century, leading to the Sultanate bringing nearly all of South Asia under its control, meanwhile also defeating the Mongols, and pushing them back all the way to Peshawar. The Delhi Sultanate at it's peak is said to have had the capacity to raise 370000 horsemen, though they only raised it once in such high numbers, and had to disband many after a year as per Tarikh i Firuzshahi. But even then by mid 14th century, the Rajputs under Mewar and smaller principalities such as that of the Hada Chahamanas were able to push back the Sultanate forces out of most of Rajasthan. Throughout the late 14th and all of 15th century the Rajputs increased in power with Mewar becoming the premier power in North India, and states such Jodhpur, Gwalior and others also emerging. Finally the Rajput dominance was ended in 1527 by the Mughals using the Ottoman artillery tactics. As such if we compare the Rajputs to the likes of Vijayanagar, which till the Taulava dynasty of the late 15th century, was often forced to pay tributes to the Bahamanid Sultans, or the weak Sayyid and Lodi dynasties of Delhi, I would defiitely not say that Rajput history is just defined by defeats and heroism. This is more of a modern Indian opinion that either 'celebrates' the Rajput 'resistance' and 'sacrifice', or looks at Rajputs like some pompous and foolish aristocrats who are always defeated, despite one often needing to skip centuries to look for such defeats. It is akin to saying that Mughal empire suffering defeat after defeat if we only focus on their defeat at the hands of Sher Shah in 1530s and then skip over a 100 years to cover their conflict with the Marathas which resulted in the loss of their empire. The Rajputs were an aristocratic martial class that founded many states or served as elites in many others, nothing more, nothing less, they were neither particularly 'heroic' nor particularly 'pompous' or foolishly 'honourable'.

Unfortunately, I cannot rewrite the intros for army lists without getting French, German and Spanish translations, for which there is no budget.

[rbodleyscott]

2. The 962-1040 Ghazvanid list should have at least 8 Armored Muslim Lancers if there is no Best Equipped Lancers, also I wonder if the possbile Arab cavalry can be depicted by the Muslim Light Horse unit here, your call. Finally increase the Turkish Light Horse to 6. Kitab i Yamini makes it clear that they valued armoured horse greatly.

Here is the revised early Ghaznavid list:

Note:

1) Javelin-armed Muslim light horse were a North African/Andalusian thing, not in found the east.

Ghaznavid Early.jpg (157.75 KiB) Viewed 1992 times

[newbiesoldat]

1. Ok, I had not known that the unit was a Javelin based unit, I would just state that maybe some generic Muslim light cavalry unit would suit the Ghazvanids better than one that is specifically termed Bedouin. I don't think one would find Bedouin mercenaries in so many numbers as to form full companies of them beyond north or east of Iraq.

2. 'Ancient' Rajputs should not have compulsory infantry or elephants since it is from this period onwards that we start seeing references to cavalry force or cavalry army helping them win the wars. There are references to cavalry armies defeating the elephant armies of Eastern and Central India.

3. As for the description, I suppose it can't be helped. Though, as a suggestion, maybe you can simply remove some bit rather than write a new description, that would help avoid the need for translators.

a. I think you can remove the second sentence (chronically unable to united and bearing the brunt of Muslim inasions) since the Rajputs did unite under the Pratiharas when they defeated the Arabs (800-950), some briefly united under the Vaghelas of Gujarat to push back early Delhi Sultanate incursions (1220-1230 approx), and finally from 1350 to 1527, for most of the period, they regularly united under Mewar, not to mention it also needs to be understood that the Mulsims were also often fragmented, the Delhi Sultanate only stayed united from 1290-1351, otherwise even they regularly needed to keep Sindh and Bengal in check, the Muslim states beyond the Indo Gangetic, that survived, such as the Bahamanids had no qualms in making alliances with the Hindu polities such as the Nayakas of Tilang to drive out Delhi, or to simply secede like Sindh, Bengal, and later Gujarat and Malwa. So the Muslims too had difficulties in staying united, in fact many Indian Muslims and Afghan chiefs fought under Mewar against Babur in 1527, so there was no united Hindu or Muslim binary as many colonial era and 'nationalistic' historians have claimed.

b. You can also remove the bit about suffering greatly and showing great heroism, they were generally successful in maintaining their states even when divided in smaller states, and very powerful when united. As such they suffered no less or more than other military states, and were no less or more heroic than any other martial class. It must also be understood that many Muslim States such as those of Gujarat, Malwa and Jaunpur actively tried to settle and recruit Rajputs in their own armies, and some such as Gujarat Sultans, Khans of Nagaur and Walis of Mewat even tried to claim common Kshatriya heritage with the Rajputs on account of their Indian origin.

c. As for the last sentence, you can simply delete all except 'They proved very resilient, re-establishing their kingdoms when they had the chance.' The bit about repeated defeats, as given in my earlier post, is not true, and the last line about some kingdoms being able to survive till the Mughals gives the impression that Rajputs struggled to keep their kingdoms, when in fact the pre-Mughal medieval period actually saw the cropping up of Rajput states and principalities across Western and North India, in many ways it was the peak of Rajput military and royal culture across North India with many Rajput princely or noble adventurers founding new states, or cadet brances emerging and becoming major powers. While Mewar was the dominant kingdom, the late 14th and 15th centuries saw the emergence of states such as Jodhpur (Marwar), Bikaner, Amer/Amber, Gwalior, Saurashtra, Bundelkhand and more, not to mention the many principalities. Out of these only Gwalior and Saurashtra would fall to the Lodi and Gujarat Sultans respectively, but new states such as the Purabiya Rajputs of Raisen, Bhilsa and Chanderi would also emerge as a result of Mewar destroying the half of the Malwa Sultanate.

This should give you a description that goes like; 'Rajput-ruled kingdoms started to appear in NW India.......traditional military order of the Vedic people. When facing facing defeat.........funeral pyres. They proved resilient, re-establishing their kindoms whhen they had the chance.'

Let me know what you think of this, and is it possible to accurately remove these lines in other language descriptions.

[rbodleyscott]

1. Ok, I had not known that the unit was a Javelin based unit, I would just state that maybe some generic Muslim light cavalry unit would suit the Ghazvanids better than one that is specifically termed Bedouin. I don't think one would find Bedouin mercenaries in so many numbers as to form full companies of them beyond north or east of Iraq.

We try to avoid having duplicate units just so they can have a different name in some lists. Sometimes this leads to minor anomalies, as in this case.

2. 'Ancient' Rajputs should not have compulsory infantry or elephants since it is from this period onwards that we start seeing references to cavalry force or cavalry army helping them win the wars. There are references to cavalry armies defeating the elephant armies of Eastern and Central India.

OK

3. As for the description, I suppose it can't be helped. Though, as a suggestion, maybe you can simply remove some bit rather than write a new description, that would help avoid the need for translators.

a. I think you can remove the second sentence (chronically unable to united and bearing the brunt of Muslim inasions) since the Rajputs did unite under the Pratiharas when they defeated the Arabs (800-950), some briefly united under the Vaghelas of Gujarat to push back early Delhi Sultanate incursions (1220-1230 approx), and finally from 1350 to 1527, for most of the period, they regularly united under Mewar, not to mention it also needs to be understood that the Mulsims were also often fragmented, the Delhi Sultanate only stayed united from 1290-1351, otherwise even they regularly needed to keep Sindh and Bengal in check, the Muslim states beyond the Indo Gangetic, that survived, such as the Bahamanids had no qualms in making alliances with the Hindu polities such as the Nayakas of Tilang to drive out Delhi, or to simply secede like Sindh, Bengal, and later Gujarat and Malwa. So the Muslims too had difficulties in staying united, in fact many Indian Muslims and Afghan chiefs fought under Mewar against Babur in 1527, so there was no united Hindu or Muslim binary as many colonial era and 'nationalistic' historians have claimed.

b. You can also remove the bit about suffering greatly and showing great heroism, they were generally successful in maintaining their states even when divided in smaller states, and very powerful when united. As such they suffered no less or more than other military states, and were no less or more heroic than any other martial class. It must also be understood that many Muslim States such as those of Gujarat, Malwa and Jaunpur actively tried to settle and recruit Rajputs in their own armies, and some such as Gujarat Sultans, Khans of Nagaur and Walis of Mewat even tried to claim common Kshatriya heritage with the Rajputs on account of their Indian origin.

c. As for the last sentence, you can simply delete all except 'They proved very resilient, re-establishing their kingdoms when they had the chance.' The bit about repeated defeats, as given in my earlier post, is not true, and the last line about some kingdoms being able to survive till the Mughals gives the impression that Rajputs struggled to keep their kingdoms, when in fact the pre-Mughal medieval period actually saw the cropping up of Rajput states and principalities across Western and North India, in many ways it was the peak of Rajput military and royal culture across North India with many Rajput princely or noble adventurers founding new states, or cadet brances emerging and becoming major powers. While Mewar was the dominant kingdom, the late 14th and 15th centuries saw the emergence of states such as Jodhpur (Marwar), Bikaner, Amer/Amber, Gwalior, Saurashtra, Bundelkhand and more, not to mention the many principalities. Out of these only Gwalior and Saurashtra would fall to the Lodi and Gujarat Sultans respectively, but new states such as the Purabiya Rajputs of Raisen, Bhilsa and Chanderi would also emerge as a result of Mewar destroying the half of the Malwa Sultanate.

This should give you a description that goes like; 'Rajput-ruled kingdoms started to appear in NW India.......traditional military order of the Vedic people. When facing facing defeat.........funeral pyres. They proved resilient, re-establishing their kindoms whhen they had the chance.'

Let me know what you think of this, and is it possible to accurately remove these lines in other language descriptions.

I will look at how feasible it would be to do so.

[rbodleyscott]

Here is what I have for the English version.

I will do what I can with the translated versions.

Rajput Intro.jpg (75.04 KiB) Viewed 1936 times

Rajput 650-1049 AD.jpg (118.39 KiB) Viewed 1936 times

[newbiesoldat]

The Ancient Rajput roster looks good, I don't think there is any further addition that is required.

As for the Ghazvanids, I think it also is largely accurate and has a roster than can be played even without adding the Bedouin cavalry, so not a problem for any historical purists.

Lastly, the new Rajput description seems fine, thank you for your attention and efforts, these changes should make South Asian factions much more compelling for all to try.

[rbodleyscott]

Thank you for your work on this.

[newbiesoldat]

Glad to have contributed, it was a pleasure.

[newbiesoldat]

I've just checked the new patch, and would just point towards a minor point regarding the Hindu South Army list. The Army needs the unit of Indian Light Horse (Javelin Cavalry).

The South Indian Cavalry was defined by several of its contexts, firstly, the horses were usually very precious since they were mostly imported considering the South India was not suitable for their breeding, secondly, the South Indians at least till 1300s did not widely use horse shoes, and many also did not use iron stirrups, this has been noted by both Marco Polo and Wassaf (13th and early 14th centuries), both of whom noted that for all the wealth and prosperity of South India, they were not well versed in the maintenance of horses, and finally South Indian armies had to deal with lots of elephants, and thus the use of javelins by cavalry was widespread.

To note here is that Deccani and Karnataka based polities such as the Western Chalukyas, Hoysalas and the Vijayanagar states did have the state of the art cavalry armor and equipment, as can be observed from texts such as Manasollasa (12th century) and the Hoysala temple sculptures (13th centuries), however, as for the deeper South, only nobles and perhaps their selecti contingents had access to latest stirrups and horse shoes as these are depicted from the 10th century onwards on only Hero Stones (kind of martyr memorials) but as seen from foreign accounts, it seems common South Indian cavalryman was not well equipped.

Here I would further point to the difference between Deccani Cavalry and far Southern Cavalry, according to the 14th century account of Futuh us Salatin, the Deccani Cavalry differed from North Indian counterparts in that they did not use bows, and fought with lances and swords only, thus they did have traditional charging tactics it seems while not using any mounted archery. On the other hand, Marco Polo and Wassaf note about the deep Southern horsmen that they mostly did not use full cavalry equipment, and also a 13th century Chola Poem; Kalingathupparini, an account of Chola-Kalinga war, mentions Chola cavalry using javelins to counter the elephant contingents of Kalinga (Eastern Coast of India, South of Bengal), but these Chola horsemen later attacked the Kalinga archers, and were decimated in their attempt though managed to reduce the enemy numbers by half.

Considering that I will be too inconvenient to make a new Deccani List apart from the Hindu South List, I propose the following:

4 Indian Lancers and 8 Indian Light Horse for the Hindu South Army lists.

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks

4 Indian Lancers and 8 Indian Light Horse for the Hindu South Army lists.

This seems rather a lot if horses were so difficult to get. What proportion of the army could they be?

In 1050-1335 and 1336-1500 list?

[newbiesoldat]

Thanks

4 Indian Lancers and 8 Indian Light Horse for the Hindu South Army lists.

This seems rather a lot if horses were so difficult to get. What proportion of the army could they be?

In 1050-1335 and 1336-1500 list?

I think it should be applicable to the 1050-1335 list alone, the later non-Vijayanagar polities were in the far south, and should have something akin to 1-2 Indian Lancers and 4-5 Indian Light Horse owing to their horse limitations.

I am assuming the Hindu South (1050-1335) represents both the Deccani and the South Indian lists, and so Deccani polities like the Seuna Yadava, Hoysala and the Kakatiya states are also included, and they did have a considerable number of cavalry, including as mentioned, lance armed cavalry. Hoysala according to one 14th century source (can't remeber the exact name) could muster some 20,000 horsemen. So that gives us an idea about the numbers.

Secondly, while local horses were substandard, that often meant that they were unsuitable charging but serviceable for ranged and melee, so the Indian Light Horse would be suitable.

[rbodleyscott]

How about these then?

Hindu South 1050-1335.jpg (131.91 KiB) Viewed 1548 times

Hindu South 1336-1500.jpg (134.92 KiB) Viewed 1548 times