Derby Teams (UK) - 3rd & 4th October

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:14 pm

david53 wrote:
I thought about the dailami for a while but not got over losing all four games im France with them.

If you want to do Dailami use Hamdanids

hannibal · Post by **hannibal** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:27 pm

Happy to say that the 3 individuals have kindly agreed to form a team - so now the draw is nice & even with 12 teams. Thanks to all those who offered help with finding floaters - looks like they won't be needed now (famous last words!)

Revised R&R below. Some "late lists" have obviosuly been sent to the organisers in error, so things not as bad as first appeared. Still a few unaccounted for though.

Marc

Period: Field of Glory 15mm

Period Umpire:
Marc Lunn

Competitor Details
Name (Team Leader*) Team Pool Army

Bob Amey * Impalers Yes Pool 3 Santa Hermndad Nueva Castilian
Peter Butler Impalers Yes Pool 2 Ilkhanid Mongol
Andy Ellis Impalers Yes Pool 1 Alexandrian Macedonian

Ian Stewart * MK Foggers No Pool 1 Late List
Richard Collins MK Foggers Yes Pool 2 Arab Conquest
Harrison Pearce MK Foggers Yes Pool 3 100YW English

Simon Clarke * Burton Yes Pool 1 Bosporan
Paul Freeman Burton Yes Pool 2 Arab Conquest
Lynnette Maxim Burton Yes Pool 3 WOR (Yorkist Pret)

Andy Kitcher * Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 1 Early Carthaginian
Jon Houchin Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 2 Ghaznavid
Paul Cummins Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 3 Ordonance French

Ian Speed Alumwell Team A Yes Pool 1 Ancient British
Adrian Ball Alumwell Team A No Pool 2 Late List
Dino Monticol * Alumwell Team A No Pool 3 Late List

Andy Shepherd Alumwell Team B No Pool 1 Late List
Mark Clarke Alumwell Team B Yes Pool 2 Ilkhanid Mongol
Silvie Mills Alumwell Team B Yes Pool 3 Medieval Danish

Marc Lunn Derby Yes Pool 2 Khurasanian
Clive Holland Derby Yes Pool 1 Thracian
Nigel Philips Derby Yes Pool 3 German

Dave Ruddock * MAWS1 Yes Pool 1 Bosporan
James Hamilton MAWS1 Yes Pool 3 Santa Hermndad Nueva Castilian
Nik Gaukroger MAWS1 Yes Pool 2 Seljuk Turk

Ian MacKay Central London WC Yes Pool 3 100YW (Continental)
Gordon Jamieson * Central London WC Yes Pool 2 Ayyubid Egyptian
Dave Saunders Central London WC Yes Pool 1 Alexandrian Macedonian

David Hoey Mercenaries Yes Pool2 Khurasanian
Andy McKay Mercenaries No Pool 3 Floater
Ben Clapperton Mercenaries Yes Pool 1 Late Republican Roman

Adrian Steer Halifax Yes Pool 1 Early Persian
Roger Greenwood Halifax Yes Pool 2 Ghaznavid
Rob Taylor Halifax Yes Pool 3 Catalan Company

David Redhead Allies Yes Pool 2 Seljuk Turk
Leslie Mitchell Allies Yes Pool 1 Early Successor
Phil Vernon Allies Yes Pool 3 Medieval German

david53 · Post by **david53** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:06 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
david53 wrote:
I thought about the dailami for a while but not got over losing all four games im France with them.
If you want to do Dailami use Hamdanids

Used them once at Northern doubles this year and came fifth so with the shooty Cavalry they are a much better army. But they do suffer if no terrain goes down.

Robert241167 · Post by **Robert241167** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:16 pm

Hi Marc

Have you got the rest of the late lists in now?

Rob

hannibal · Post by **hannibal** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:24 pm

All but one have turned up now having been sent to the wrong place or having been the victims of Gremlins

Marc

Period: Field of Glory 15mm

Period Umpire:
Marc Lunn

Competitor Details Competion details
Name (Team Leader*) Team List? Pool Army

Bob Amey * Impalers Yes Pool 3 Santa Hermndad Nueva Castilian
Peter Butler Impalers Yes Pool 2 Ilkhanid Mongol
Andy Ellis Impalers Yes Pool 1 Alexandrian Macedonian

Ian Stewart * MK Foggers No Pool 1 Late List
Richard Collins MK Foggers Yes Pool 2 Arab Conquest
Harrison Pearce MK Foggers Yes Pool 3 100YW English

Simon Clarke * Burton Yes Pool 1 Bosporan
Paul Freeman Burton Yes Pool 2 Arab Conquest
Lynnette Maxim Burton Yes Pool 3 WOR (Yorkist Pret)

Andy Kitcher * Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 1 Early Carthaginian
Jon Houchin Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 2 Ghaznavid
Paul Cummins Wycombe Warband Yes Pool 3 Ordonance French

Ian Speed Alumwell Team A Yes Pool 1 Ancient British
Adrian Ball Alumwell Team A Yes Pool 2 Seljuk Turk
Dino Monticol * Alumwell Team A Yes Pool 3 Catalan Company

Andy Shepherd Alumwell Team B Yes Pool 1 Alexandrian Macedonian
Mark Clarke Alumwell Team B Yes Pool 2 Ilkhanid Mongol
Silvie Mills Alumwell Team B Yes Pool 3 Medieval Danish

Marc Lunn Derby Yes Pool 2 Khurasanian
Clive Holland Derby Yes Pool 1 Thracian
Nigel Philips Derby Yes Pool 3 German

Dave Ruddock * MAWS1 Yes Pool 1 Bosporan
James Hamilton MAWS1 Yes Pool 3 Santa Hermndad Nueva Castilian
Nik Gaukroger MAWS1 Yes Pool 2 Seljuk Turk

Ian MacKay Central London WC Yes Pool 3 100YW (Continental)
Gordon Jamieson * Central London WC Yes Pool 2 Ayyubid Egyptian
Dave Saunders Central London WC Yes Pool 1 Alexandrian Macedonian

Adrian Steer Halifax Yes Pool 1 Early Persian
Roger Greenwood Halifax Yes Pool 2 Ghaznavid
Rob Taylor Halifax Yes Pool 3 Catalan Company

David Redhead Allies Yes Pool 2 Seljuk Turk
Leslie Mitchell Allies Yes Pool 1 Early Successor
Phil Vernon Allies Yes Pool 3 Medieval German

Ben Clapperton Mercenaries Yes Pool 1 Late Republican Roman
David Hoey Mercenaries Yes Pool 2 Khurasanian
Andy McKay Mercenaries Yes Pool 3 100YW (Continental)

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:07 am

Many thanks to Marc for this competition - it went very well IMO and for me the "bad old days" of Derby are clearly behind us

I'll be along again next year - the unexpected excepted

paulcummins · Post by **paulcummins** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:13 pm

Yup - it was really good, well organised and all that. I will also be back next year. But with more generals.

oh - and lost my questionaire thingy for next year

I cant remember all the options but ....

I would like something along the lines of 3 pools (by book or date - dont really care)
draw done as teams (so we can sit together and laugh at each others dice)

david53 · Post by **david53** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:47 pm

paulcummins wrote:Yup - it was really good, well organised and all that. I will also be back next year. But with more generals.

oh - and lost my questionaire thingy for next year

I cant remember all the options but ....

I would like something along the lines of 3 pools (by book or date - dont really care)
draw done as teams (so we can sit together and laugh at each others dice)

Go with the crying at the bad dice

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:03 pm

paulcummins wrote: draw done as teams (so we can sit together and laugh at each others dice)

Yup, the buzz is better his way and it feels more like a team event.

Robert241167 · Post by **Robert241167** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:09 pm

Hi guys

I had a great time too even though I was under the weather. Hope I passed nothing on to anyone.

Your proposal for a draw by teams does sound interesting and something I could go along with.

Would people then alter their gameplay during a game as they can see how their team are doing overall?

Rob

david53 · Post by **david53** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:09 pm

Robert241167 wrote:Hi guys

I had a great time too even though I was under the weather. Hope I passed nothing on to anyone.

Your proposal for a draw by teams does sound interesting and something I could go along with.

Would people then alter their gameplay during a game as they can see how their team are doing overall?

Rob

Yes IMO it would change the feel once people worked out all the ins and outs, not saying people would but in certain events draws or a slight loss on one game could help a team out with the next game. I liked it cause it was another event to play FOG I'm not sold on team events IMO.

list_lurker · Post by **list_lurker** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:15 pm

draw done as teams

I like this idea. Sure, leads to strategic team play. But gives the competition flavour. There are a lot of vanilla events already

paulcummins · Post by **paulcummins** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:27 pm

strategic team play as a negative requires you to be able to play for a draw.

I know I cant play for a draw in FOG - though I have occasionaly managed one.

I think playing for a draw in FOG needs you to be the better player (or to have a girly lh army in which case that is all you are going to get anyway

)

it would make situations like Nik and the Cobra's game more interesting.

terrain split the table in half - one couldnt go in, the other couldnt come out so they had a draw.

If one side really needed to win for the team - makes it a bit different.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:24 pm

I really didn't like team draw under DBM but that was because it was very easy (OK fairly easy) to kill a DBM game stone dead and effectively waste 3 1/2 hours of your opponents life for a game where you know what the result will be from the start.

I have now concluded that players who look for a draw from the outset in FoG will have to play really well against a determined opponent so think that a team draw is worth a go for next year.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:31 pm

paulcummins wrote:strategic team play as a negative requires you to be able to play for a draw.

I know I cant play for a draw in FOG - though I have occasionaly managed one.

I think playing for a draw in FOG needs you to be the better player (or to have a girly lh army in which case that is all you are going to get anyway )

it would make situations like Nik and the Cobra's game more interesting.

terrain split the table in half - one couldnt go in, the other couldnt come out so they had a draw.

If one side really needed to win for the team - makes it a bit different.

Explain to me any single event that two top players would be happy to call a draw before a move was made. Now what happens the next time two players are happy with a draw knowing that there team mates are winning. A presedent has been set for any future team events.

Not playing and getting a draw if played by two top players saves a big loss but still drops people down the table and allows the possibility of an easier last game whitch could help the team result. This is a result of team play.

Since in the pool two there were loads of draws played for or otherwise. Sine 10 out of the 12 people thought to bring Cavalry armies.

Playing with LH armies does not raise the chance of a draw its all down to the experience of handling the troop types.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:44 pm

david53 wrote:Explain to me any single event that two top players would be happy to call a draw before a move was made. Now what happens the next time two players are happy with a draw knowing that there team mates are winning. A presedent has been set for any future team events.

Not playing and getting a draw if played by two top players saves a big loss but still drops people down the table and allows the possibility of an easier last game whitch could help the team result. This is a result of team play.

Having seen the table I can understand why the players concerned decided to agree a draw and then play a friendly game.

This kind of thing happens in singles comps as well and has been happening for years.

Terrain is laid out. Player 1 looks at it and states "I am not going to attack into that". Player 2 says "If you think I am going to come out through those tiny gaps ..." both players agree that rather than sit doing nothing for 3 1/2 hours that they will call it a day ad try for some fun.

With the team system used at Derby this year this is not actually a good thing for either team unless the two teams concerned are in close contention. IIRC that round cost the MAWS team 20 points of its 30 point lead on Impalers despite me 'winning' my game 18-2.

hannibal · Post by **hannibal** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:22 am

All,

Thanks for the positive feedback. The results of my quick survey were actually a small majority against moving to a draw by team, although if I add the comments on this forum it will probably work out about even. The problem from an organisers persepctive with this is that it's more difficult to accomodate people who want to play but can't get the numbers together for a team, so there's more risk of byes. As it happens this wouldn't have been a problem this year though!

On balance I think I might change to a team draw next year. I think there were a few people who would have come but were put off by the "3 singles" format. I will also change the pools round a bit next year, so get your votes in for your favourite periods!

Thanks again to all who attended and played in such a good spirit - even my lack of umpiring skills/ rules knowledge were not too badly exposed!

Marc

david53 · Post by **david53** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:56 am

hammy wrote:
david53 wrote:Explain to me any single event that two top players would be happy to call a draw before a move was made. Now what happens the next time two players are happy with a draw knowing that there team mates are winning. A presedent has been set for any future team events.

Not playing and getting a draw if played by two top players saves a big loss but still drops people down the table and allows the possibility of an easier last game whitch could help the team result. This is a result of team play.
Having seen the table I can understand why the players concerned decided to agree a draw and then play a friendly game.

This kind of thing happens in singles comps as well and has been happening for years.

Terrain is laid out. Player 1 looks at it and states "I am not going to attack into that". Player 2 says "If you think I am going to come out through those tiny gaps ..." both players agree that rather than sit doing nothing for 3 1/2 hours that they will call it a day ad try for some fun.

With the team system used at Derby this year this is not actually a good thing for either team unless the two teams concerned are in close contention. IIRC that round cost the MAWS team 20 points of its 30 point lead on Impalers despite me 'winning' my game 18-2.

As I have said it still allows one team an easier last game. The whole point is to play around the terrian and as the players picked said terrian whos at fault. It has set a precident and I do think this will occour more, does this mean the next time i play a heavy foot army with my LH in the Steppes my oppenont will want to call it a draw.

IMO you pick the terrian you play the game, whats the point otherwise.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:24 pm

The heavy foot army may well offer you a draw Dave. If you refused, then they might well just sit on their base line and wait it out.
Team play might encourage this to happen. In my opinion, not necessarily always a bad thing. If you want to win, you need to be able to offer your opponent an opportunity to win also. In picking an army, it is worth considering if anyone will bother to fight it.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:11 pm

Does anyone know where the results for Derby can be found?

I am looking to update the FoG rankings and need the results.