Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[BiteNibbleChomp]

An idea for the D-Day beaches. Make the hexes become 'Axis retreat' hexes a few turns before. That way the units won't be lost, but removed from the beaches - making everyone happy! (Well, except for High Command who are angry that the Allies even got ashore!)

- BNC

[Ceek]

I like BNC's idea for a kinder "penalty" for not clearing the beach, but agree w/ Delta that the no-go zone is pretty large right now and would prevent all but a Von Rundstedt-style defense of France (and we know how that turned out). It's a tricky balance, I realize, but I think a tad more latitude in the player's response would be a good thing.

[Uhu]

About the beach project:
I never like the artifical restrictions, which makes players walls, what to do, or not. It steals also the immersion from the player. The only situation, where I find it an excellent solution, when it is prohibited for the player to move given units away and he still do it.

I like more the idea, that a message will be delivered, that it is not advised to guard the whole shore with units, because they will be exposed and it could have serious consequences... In that way, the player don't feel limited or forbidden. I don't like the idea to totally forbidden to enter the shores - see the explanations. I would let the player to put several units on the shores, but many gaps should still exists.
I like the idea, that if the player still packs the shore full of units, than more Allied ships will appear and pulverise the - mostly - soft targets. Some prestige loss could be also implemented, with the justification, that these units are needed elsewhere, where real fight happens and not taking sunshine on the beach. And therefore some resources (prestige) need to be redirected.
I don't recommend too much partisans, because thay would be also unhistorical - partisans mostly doesn't confronted with front line units, they "just" destroyed infrastructure and support units.

Another solution: if the player barricade Normany, let the invasion happen more east - as the Germans thought, would be.

*Anyway, I think, it is only possible to put so many units on the shore, if the player has already defeated the SU. And if that happened, the Allied would have not risked an invasion against such a strong Axis, so...in that case, the invasion should be cancelled with a script (if possible).
Bí the way: McGuba - where will you get an extra zone...?

[McGuba]

An idea for the D-Day beaches. Make the hexes become 'Axis retreat' hexes a few turns before. That way the units won't be lost, but removed from the beaches - making everyone happy! (Well, except for High Command who are angry that the Allies even got ashore!)

Well, that would take the mod from the historical approach to the science-ficiton of the Star Trek universe, IMO. Units suddenly and misteriously teleported away, probably by the Vulcans, violating the Prime Directive, only to appear somewhere else later, sounds a bit unreal to me. I do not think I could provide a believable explanation to it.

I like BNC's idea for a kinder "penalty" for not clearing the beach, but agree w/ Delta that the no-go zone is pretty large right now and would prevent all but a Von Rundstedt-style defense of France (and we know how that turned out). It's a tricky balance, I realize, but I think a tad more latitude in the player's response would be a good thing.

OK, no-go zone would be smaller, like one hex next to the beach. But no suddenly disappearing player units from the map.

I like more the idea, that a message will be delivered, that it is not advised to guard the whole shore with units, because they will be exposed and it could have serious consequences...

Me too. Not the Vulcans, but the Klingons would interfere.

But seriously, I have decided to use most of these counter-actions:
- the player is allowed to place about 5-6 units in zone 28 (next to the beach)
- if he places more than this he would get more and more extra Allied units for each Axis unit: battleships, tactical bombers attacking the beaches, partisans and more Allied units landing elsewhere in France.

Bí the way: McGuba - where will you get an extra zone...?

Zone 28 has been in the mod already for quite a while: it tells the AI where to land. It was much harder to allocate a zone for the air war over Germany - and it was really really the last zone I could free up The lack of AI zones is still great concern. If there were more, I could make more reasonable and realistic AI operations.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

An idea for the D-Day beaches. Make the hexes become 'Axis retreat' hexes a few turns before. That way the units won't be lost, but removed from the beaches - making everyone happy! (Well, except for High Command who are angry that the Allies even got ashore!)

Well, that would take the mod from the historical approach to the science-ficiton of the Star Trek universe, IMO. Units suddenly and misteriously teleported away, probably by the Vulcans, violating the Prime Directive, only to appear somewhere else later, sounds a bit unreal to me. I do not think I could provide a believable explanation to it.

I can: they all went on vacation!

- BNC

[McGuba]

On a second thought, units placed on the beaches could lose like two strenght points in each turn as set by a script (due to the Allied bombardment), too. This would make up for the prestige penalty as well as replacing those units costs prestige. And if the player does not want to replace or move them away they would eventually slowly perish in like five turns later at best.

[Ceek]

I am warming to the idea of a larger scale invasion (in terms of naval and air support) and increased partisan activity if you "stack" the beaches. As long as the player is warned about the potential consequences of either strategy, they can make an educated choice about how to manage either outcome.

The next question: will you do something similar to Italy and North Africa? I employed the same strategy there and the Allies never made it off Sicily. I spent many happy turns bombing the mainland Italian invasion force to smitherines while they were parked helplessly off the coast.

[McGuba]

Sure, but since Sicily and Italy is even smaller than the Normandy beaches it would be a harder nut to crack for the AI. Which cries for even more retaliation.

[Uhu]

Still about the bombing theme:

- First of all, I still not 100% agree with the logic, that countermessures should be made to avoid the player to move his airforce from NW Europe away - in that logic in ALL occupied territories should have serious consqauences, when the player moves his land troops away: NW Europe (I almos completely emptied it, only in partisan-dangered regions are a few inf units), Russia, Crete, Norway, etc. Sure, there are partisans in some places, but again I want to point on that, that with this logic, all occupied city should have garrisons to not have a rebellion, or allied commando raids...

(Well, at this point we come also to a needed option, what I miss from the game: to divide, or to join same types of units together. Although the second one can be done with cheats (destroying one unit and raising the other unit's strenght + manually calculate the experience of sum of the two units). I think, it was common in the war that depleted units were joined together.)

- Some far I accept the point that some axis aircraft should guard NW Europe and AA units should be also there.
- The replacement for completely destroyed axis aircraft is a good idea, it should be implemented in limited way. Althrough I also didn't encountered that my fighters (Fw 190A hero, Bf 109G-2 hero) would be attacked by allied planes - at least not until 1st Q of 1943, where I'm now.
- I find the penalties for allied bombers beeing on given axis cities too high. It's should be lower, as with the partisans - they are much easier to prevent to enter the guarded zones!
- The bombers - if they bomb - will cause anyway much prestige loss. It should be tested, how much - that would add to the penalty prestige loss.
- With this solution in no way would be simulated, how much the fighters have herassed the bombers: a bomber unit with strenght 2 would give the same penalty, as a strenght 10 one. And it was really common, that, if the bomber squadrons were heavily attacked by the enemy, they dropped their bombs elsewhere, or not so accurate.
- With that solution, player can stationate fighters on the given hexes to prevent allied bombers to enter it. That sounds gamey.
- With that solution, the game will be extreme hard (if played in that way, that the player do not conquer England early), because permanent high prestige losses could not avoided: bombers are though targets - even the later types - and they are guarded by fighters. So to avoid such losses, the player not only should destroy all bombers, before entering the given hexes, but destroy before all escort fighters. But, if it can be done, that the allied fighters cannot escort them so far, than it is a good solution. Question is, how this affect the allied air power in other regions (mediterrean)?

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Seeing as you like the quest idea, why not add one for this mod?:

'Von Rundstedt suggests a defence closer to a supply center'

Task: Clear Zone 28 by May, 1944
Complete by: May '44
Trigger: Jan '44 [or later] and at least 1 unit in Zone 28
Reward: A new, expensive unit to make it worthwhile (Me262, Tiger II or V1)

Feel free to add this, or alternatively I could add it with my telegram-style quest screen that will be used in WWI's huge map.

- BNC

[McGuba]

- First of all, I still not 100% agree with the logic, that countermessures should be made to avoid the player to move his airforce from NW Europe away - in that logic in ALL occupied territories should have serious consqauences, when the player moves his land troops away: NW Europe (I almos completely emptied it, only in partisan-dangered regions are a few inf units), Russia, Crete, Norway, etc. Sure, there are partisans in some places, but again I want to point on that, that with this logic, all occupied city should have garrisons to not have a rebellion, or allied commando raids...

If the player moves away all his units from those areas the partisans would eventually take over the control of that area. (With the exception of Crete, as of today - it is too small on the map.) Then, for example, the Allies can use the airfields in that area to extend the range or their operations. How serious it is? It depends. Still, if I compare the possible loss of Crete or Norway from a German point of view, with the complete destrucion of all the German cities, I think the latter could have more serious consequencies. It is not very well known how great efforts the Germans made to protect their cities as most books and games deal with the much more spectacular tanks and fighters, but as wiki writes :
"The financial costs associated with anti-aircraft cannon were substantial, especially when compared to fighter aircraft.[7] For example, in January 1943 – at a time Germany was desperately fighting to regain the strategic initiative in the East and was also facing a heavy bombing campaign in the West – expenditures on anti-aircraft defenses were 39 million reichsmarks, whereas all the remaining weapons and munitions production amounted to 93 million (including 20 million of the navy budget and only nine million of the aircraft-related budget).[7]"

- Some far I accept the point that some axis aircraft should guard NW Europe and AA units should be also there.

In the light of the above quote I think it is fair enough. The only question is how else I could convince the player to do so? Ask him nicely? I guess the possibility of an occasional prestige penalty is the best way to make sure the player at least tries to protect those cities and minimize the loss. Hit where it hurts.

- The replacement for completely destroyed axis aircraft is a good idea, it should be implemented in limited way.

I think there is already one or two such planes, but there can be a few more, up to a certain number. Also, the player gets 'gift' planes throughout the scenario, like the first Fw-190 or the Italian MC.202.

- I find the penalties for allied bombers beeing on given axis cities too high. It's should be lower, as with the partisans - they are much easier to prevent to enter the guarded zones!

Currently the player gets the very same penalty for partisan incursons as well: 50 for one partisan unit, 100 for two, 150 for three or more blocking the railway lines at certain points. It would be the same with one or more bombers over the objective cities.

- The bombers - if they bomb - will cause anyway much prestige loss. It should be tested, how much - that would add to the penalty prestige loss. !

I have tested it. It looks like the AI is only willing to bomb empty victory objecitve cities for which the player gets a 10 prestige point deduction. IMO it is way too low to make the player to do everything to protect those cities. For example, if I would only lose 20-30 prestige points on average each turn for not protecting the cities, I would not bother doing so. In that case my fighters would be much more useful on the frontline.

- With this solution in no way would be simulated, how much the fighters have herassed the bombers: a bomber unit with strenght 2 would give the same penalty, as a strenght 10 one. And it was really common, that, if the bomber squadrons were heavily attacked by the enemy, they dropped their bombs elsewhere, or not so accurate.

Sure, it is a game engine limitation, so the bombers have to be destroyed. But, it is the same with all other units in the game: an infantry unit at strenght 1 can capture an empty city in the same way as another unit at strengh 10.

- With that solution, player can stationate fighters on the given hexes to prevent allied bombers to enter it. That sounds gamey.

Not really. There are about 10 such city hexes, which means virtually all Axis fighters on the map should be used to protect all cities in a way like that. But then, who is gonna fight over the frontline? Also, I think AI escort fighters will try to eliminate Axis fighter cover at times.

- With that solution, the game will be extreme hard (if played in that way, that the player do not conquer England early), because permanent high prestige losses could not avoided: bombers are though targets - even the later types - and they are guarded by fighters.

Well, we all know that Germany lost the war, so it should not be easy. Permament prestige losses can be avoided if the player spends all his prestige before clicking the end turn button. The prestige penalty will be deducted at the beginning of the Allied turn - and if the player has 0 prestige there is no deduction as there is no negative prestige in the game. Then, at the beginning of the next turn the player would get the normal prestige allotment, which he can spend again.

During my test plays I found that the Me-110G is an excellent bomber destroyer due to its high Air Attack. I think there are other units in the game with high AA. When it comes to bombers it is the AA that really matters. Initiative and Air Defense is not so important in this case. Having some dedicated bomber destroyers in the team could lead to a more balanced and historical core composition.

As I have reduced the range of the Spits to the lower 40's in the mod, strat bombers will not always be protected by them, as historically. Targets like Berlin, Dresden or Nurnberg cannot be reached by the Allied fighers from England. At least until the arrival of the Mosquito and the P-51.

So to avoid such losses, the player not only should destroy all bombers, before entering the given hexes, but destroy before all escort fighters. But, if it can be done, that the allied fighters cannot escort them so far, than it is a good solution. Question is, how this affect the allied air power in other regions (mediterrean)?

Well, it has to be tested, of course. I can imagne adding a few addtional airfields to the Med. However, I did not have to reduce the range of those fighters so much. The Spit VB now has 42 instead of 50, and the other Spits had 43-47 before the change, so there should not be a big problem.

Seeing as you like the quest idea, why not add one for this mod?:

I do like quests, and I had already added a few things which are very similar to your suggestion. For example, in 1941 the player is given the 'quest' to encircle the Soviet units around Kiev. The reward is the surrender of those units. However, if he does not make it by a certain time, those Soviets units would go on the offensive. Then, there are the 'quests' for the capture of certain key objectives like Malta or Leningrad, for which the player gets prestige reward. The problem is all such quests are governed by AI zones, and there are just not enough of those.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Seeing as you like the quest idea, why not add one for this mod?:

I do like quests, and I had already added a few things which are very similar to your suggestion. For example, in 1941 the player is given the 'quest' to encircle the Soviet units around Kiev. The reward is the surrender of those units. However, if he does not make it by a certain time, those Soviets units would go on the offensive. Then, there are the 'quests' for the capture of certain key objectives like Malta or Leningrad, for which the player gets prestige reward. The problem is all such quests are governed by AI zones, and there are just not enough of those.

But do you have fancy telegrams for them?

Telegram Template WWI.JPG (28.7 KiB) Viewed 4636 times

Also, the quest I suggested would only need 1 AI zone, which you have already added (28).

Also, it is clear that I haven't quite caught up to everyone else in this mod [still in 1940, turn 8]

- BNC

[McGuba]

Nice, nice

I especiall like the header "HIGH COMMAND TELEGRAM". You might also want to add "TOP SECRET" or "FOR YOUR EYES ONLY"

It would defenately take PzC even more to the RPG feel, creating more immersion. I might add it, or something similar to a later release of this mod, but for now, I would just like to release v1.4 finally. Too bad, that someone always comes up with some nice suggestion which should be implemented (and tested ), further postponing the coming release. Now I am seriously thinking about not checking this forum for a while and only concentrating on testing until I can release it. All other suggestions and stuff would then make their way to a possible later v1.5 version.

[Ceek]

McGuba, I think you have a very sound rationale for your design decisions. I appreciate you entertaining our suggestions and implementing them as they make sense w/in the larger scenario design. I agree that at this point, the best course of action is to finish 1.4 and let us have a few goes at it and put any further adjustments off until 1.5. It's not fair to put all the designing and testing on you. We can do our part. (Also, I'm really looking forward to the new challenges this version promises!)

Best of luck as you finish it up! Can't wait!

[Uhu]

Hmm, if the air war over NW Europe gets more intensive, than it would be fair, that (after some times) the Germans would get also some radar installations.

[McGuba]

I have been thinking about it for a while. There is a very interesting article here about the 'Deflating' of the British Radar. It claims that the Germans were actually ahead of the British in radar technology in 1939:

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/deflati ... ar-ii.html

And indeed, the British Chain Home radar towers proved to be a dead end as today's radars resemble more like the German Freya and Wurzburg systems. And our friend phcas made a very nice icon which could be used for the Freya to substitute the vanilla one. However, the British radar towers looked very different as seen here:





No wonder that it took some time for the Germans to realize what these strange looking towers were. So I attempted to make a new icon for the British Chain Home radar towers, here it can be seen next to phcas' radar replacement icon, which should be used for the German radar then:




The only question is, should the German radar be made mobile in the game? As opposed to the fixed British towers, the German radars were somewhat portable but in the mod it could lead to some unwanted result. For example a smart player might decide to use the radar to monitor the movements of the partisans for which radars were hardly capable. Also, we have to bear in mind that radars in PzC give an initiative bonus to fighters within their spotting range, which would have another unwanted balancing effect if the player decides to move it ahead with the frontline to give a boost to the frontline fighers. And as I understand, historically these radars were only used in the defense. Thus, I think there should be a few fixed German radar installations. I expect that these would become primary targets for the AI bombers, though.

[Uhu]

However, the British radar towers looked very different as seen here:
..................
The only question is, should the German radar be made mobile in the game?

- The British-style radar looks good, fits good in the vanilla-design. I would just add a building under their feet (or better said, before their feet) to respresent more the fact that it is a building type and to add more similarity to the vanilla icon.
- The German radars should be not mobile.
- Well, the bonus thing is problematic - maybe don't give the extra experience to the German fighters as discussed earlier (but do not lower it, because they can be still used elswhere where they would be then unbalanced). On the other hand, some benefit couldn't be bad for Germans, as I still think, that even with full airpower left in NW Europe, things wil be nasty.
- The bombers will attack the radar? But cannot be definied, that their primary targets are the cities? Well, so much AA surely will not be there to protect them too...

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Nice, nice

I especiall like the header "HIGH COMMAND TELEGRAM". You might also want to add "TOP SECRET" or "FOR YOUR EYES ONLY"

It would defenately take PzC even more to the RPG feel, creating more immersion. I might add it, or something similar to a later release of this mod, but for now, I would just like to release v1.4 finally. Too bad, that someone always comes up with some nice suggestion which should be implemented (and tested ), further postponing the coming release. Now I am seriously thinking about not checking this forum for a while and only concentrating on testing until I can release it. All other suggestions and stuff would then make their way to a possible later v1.5 version.

The telegram is just another way to represent those quests (i.e. Kiev '41 as you mentioned earlier). I can't see how much testing would be needed to see if a picture comes up (5 mins with cheat codes!)

However, you may want to edit my telegram a bit (do you really want it saying "the order of Kaiser Wilhelm II"?).

Also, now you know why v1.2 and v1.3 were created for WWI! Because I had to release them rather than wait (4+) months for GC14's briefings. v1.4 is another story, mostly due to the Grand Europe map.

And you could say that I stole your idea of playing as Germany and stomping everyone [however it is a different war I'm doing], but then again, aren't you stealing my idea from Panzer Fury anyway? (This is certainly much better than PF, at that stage I didn't know very much about the editor)

- BNC

[McGuba]

On a second thought, I think both the German Freya and Würzburg radars could be added. After all, phcas made nice icons for both of these, so why not?

The Freya was a long range early warning radar with less accuracy, so it could be a fixed structure with high spotting, but no radar trait i.e. it would not add initiative bonus to Axis fighters within its spotting range.

The Würzburg was a shorter range, but much more accurate tracking radar, mainly used for gun laying, but could also be used for vectoring fighter aircraft. Thus, as opposed to the Freya, it would give initiative bonus to Axis fighters within its spotting range. This one could be made portable as its short spotting range (2-3 hexes) would not make it an effective unit to spot partisans, but then the player would have the freedom to create his own air defense system over Germany. For example he can place a Würzburg radar next to each major German city to boost the ini of the defending fighters, or he can create a defensive line similar to the so-called Kammhuber line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammhuber_Line) to intercept the strategic bombers before they could reach their targets. The Würzburg would also be available for purchase at a moderate price (150-200 prestige points) and could be moved by a heavy truck.

Historically, the two radars were used together: "The combination of the Freya and Würzburg radar was especially powerful. Freya could be used in the classic role of a ground based search radar giving long-range early warning, and Würzburg could act as the acquisition radar for defensive weapons systems, whether it was a searchlight, anti-aircraft battery, or the vectoring of fighter aircraft."

Obviously, as the traits are not displayed in the game, all these should be hinted to the player at some point. This would lead to a more interesting and complex (and historical ) depiction of the German radar systems used in ww2.

- The bombers will attack the radar? But cannot be definied, that their primary targets are the cities? Well, so much AA surely will not be there to protect them too...

In the next version most strategic bombers will be set to attack the German cities, but the tactical bombers and the fighters will continue to attack targets of opportunity. Which will definitely include radars.

And you could say that I stole your idea of playing as Germany and stomping everyone [however it is a different war I'm doing], but then again, aren't you stealing my idea from Panzer Fury anyway? (This is certainly much better than PF, at that stage I didn't know very much about the editor)

Actually, Sparatacus' 1941 scenario was the main influence for the making of this mod, but Chris10's unreleased Panzer Corps East project was another major influence. To be honest, I did not even try your Panzer Fury, but I did borrow some scripting ideas from your War of the World mod, such as the convoy routes.

[Delta66]

Radars sound good.
However it will affect the Axis total number of units. So it may be even harder for the German to fall below the actual core limit with all those passive units, and delay even further his ability to purchase new units. I think it is a good idea to have some control on the German ability to buy new units to avoid very unhistorical core too early. On the other hand if you should wait until 44, because you have been careful with your at start units, it feels a bit too late. I think it would be good if the Germans were able to purchase units around mid 1943, corresponding to "Citadel".

I'm not sure if you can modify the core units limit during the scenario. But if you add more static units, I suggest to made at least some of them as auxiliary units. In particular Naval Mines and Forts. I find a bit gamey to disband those units from quiet areas just to free some core slots.