Conform Question

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marioslaz
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Post by marioslaz »

pbrandon wrote:Also, the reverse applies. By moving into an overlap position of an existing melee, a BG uses it's melee POA (if any) without having to use an impact POA (e.g. Hermandad sword and buckler men Arm, Sup, Dr, SSw).

Paul
But this is not a problem, from historical point of view (I assume we play wargame because we like history, otherwise there is a lot of good game with miniature...). A friendly BG come to help. What doesn't convince is that a BG charge, fight the impact and then goes away.

Mario.
nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

marioslaz wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
marioslaz wrote: Because in impact the number of dice must be the same. Red and blue match exactly, so pink cannot contribute. At impact only blue and red confront, then at melee pink conform as overlap.

Mario.
The second rank base of blue fights against pink as if it were a front rank base - page 57.
I really don't understand how. In last bullet of page 57, the rule says "... can still contact the flank edge of an enemy base, provided that it was not already in melee to its front".
And it says, following the bit you quote, "Such a charge does not count as a flank or rear charge, and is treated as a normal charge on the enemy front."


So, I still assume that pink cannot fight in impact. If it was otherwise, I will reconsider my opinion on FoG rules :)
So I cannot see why you think it cannot fight at impact. This sort of rule is included to remove some of the the artificial constraints of fixed base sizes I believe.

Time to reconsider I'm afraid :shock:
Nik Gaukroger

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marioslaz
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Post by marioslaz »

No, you are wrong. Since enemy is in contact to its front (Red charged Blue) Pink cannot contact flank of Blue. So the paragraph you quote doesn't apply, because the previous negate it, and Pink cannot fight impact. How can you fit your idea, with the sentence "is treated as a normal charge on the enemy front" if enemy front is already engaged? Again, if in that situation blue second rank would fight as a front, I would stop to play FoG because it would be a totally absurd rule.

Mario.
pbrandon
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Post by pbrandon »

Is "melee" the word causing confusion here? In FoG, "in melee to it's front" refers to having been in a round of melee combat separate from the impact phase. A BG that has been charged for the first time is not in melee until the melee phase of the turn is reached so it can still be charged by other BGs and the restriction on not being able to charge the first two ranks does not apply. Apologies in advance if I am suggesting some confusion where none exists, but I thought this might help clarify things.

Paul
Last edited by pbrandon on Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

I suspect you are correct Paul - although IIRC "melee" exists after the impact phase otherwise you could not feed more bases into an existing melee in the bound you impact in.

Also if you moved the BG contacting the flank as the first of the two - charging player decides order after all - the question does not even arise.
Nik Gaukroger

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marioslaz
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Post by marioslaz »

nikgaukroger wrote:I suspect you are correct Paul - although IIRC "melee" exists after the impact phase otherwise you could not feed more bases into an existing melee in the bound you impact in.

Also if you moved the BG contacting the flank as the first of the two - charging player decides order after all - the question does not even arise.
OK, if I understand right your reasoning, legal situations could be:
  1. Blue and Red are in a melee from previous turn, Pink cannot charge and must join the melee as overlap
  2. Red and Pink charge in the same turn Blue, this time both can fight impact phase, then Pink become an overlap
The same situation (the front of blue covered by Red) 2 different solutions. And, about historical matter, your solutions are the opposite I would predict, because a new BG that intervene in a melee can have an impact against stationary foes, while in the confusion of 2 BG that are charging the same target, I would suppose that effect would be less important.

Mario
SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet »

Helpful note: Simon addressed design intent on this point in another recent thread (emphasis added):

"The knights could anyway charge into the side edge of the Longbow. This restriction is only against troops who are already in MELEE (i.e. have fought a melee round).

Thus therefore would allow the Aux to contact the front and the knight the side edge in the same charge phase. At impact you can then choose to use 2 Kn dice and 2 Aux dice at impact. This is entirely deliberate to allow multiple BGs to charge a single BG and select who fights to some degree.

viewtopic.php?t=9288
shall
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Post by shall »

First a little observation if I may .. including some self-criticism.

I do think that in some of these long debates we are all tending to reply without taking the RAW but rather a paraphrase thereof which is at times very different. I give myself a slap because in being rather tired, thanks to little Sashca, I find myself in danger of doing the same thing at times -and even doing it once or twice :oops: :(

To clear this one up as MikeK righlty points out above (but to avoid any additional confusion)

THE SECTION ON CHARGING

States that you cannot charge the flank of a base that is already in Melee. This is to allow 2 BGs to charge at impact, one of which can hit a side edge. There is nothing to stop such ganging up of a single BG at impact where opportunity arises. Indeed it is surely good tactics. :) However this is only at IMPACT when the target BG is unengaged at the start of the IMPACT phase. Hope that makes sense.

THE SECTION ON FEEDING IN MORE BASES...

Alas is loosely titled and should have really said into an existing combat perhaps, we rather loosely thought of a melee as being something that you were in once you had fought an IMPACT phase, but didn't put a glossary entry to this effect (personal reflection only). We used melee to mean not in IMPACT phases perhaps.

However the first line is very specific and quite accurate.."a battle group involved in close combat can". Close combat is defined in the glossary as having had a combat round - impact or melee.

Hope that clarifies this and avoids any confusion that by dealing with (a) it might be confusing (b) etc.

Si
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gozerius
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Post by gozerius »

Fair enough. But the original question here had to do with the mandatory conforming of two battlegroups in side edge contact that were in contact with one enemy battle group in which the rightmost battle group was in contact by less than 1/2 a basewidth. Based on the wording in the book, and the diagrams demonstrating that a battlegroup must conform by shifting/pivoting by the minimum distance into full base to base frontal contact, or into an overlap position, or must remain in place until such a shift is possible, do the battlegroups in question:
A) Both shift right (the minimum distance to achieve full base to base contact or an overlap position) simultaneously so that the rightmost BG ends the conform move in overlap only?
B) Move individually in such a manner that the leftmost BG would end up shifting left so that the rightmost BG could shift left to maintain frontal base to base contact with the enemy BG?
C) Cancel each other's minimum shift into full frontal base to base contact because the leftmost BG must shift right, but is blocked by the one on the right, which must shift left because moving right would leave it not in a valid overlap at the moment of completion of its move because the lefthand BG is at that moment not in side edge contact with it, thus continuing to fight in an offset manner?

"A" seems correct to me because at the end of the Conform portion of the Maneuver phase, both BGs will have moved the minimum distance to line up, and all bases that took part in the Impact phase will contribute to the melee. (It's also the easiest)
"C" gets honorable mention because IF the BGs must be moved individually, and must be in full frontal contact or a valid overlap position before moving any other troops, the requirement for a minimal shift has been blocked by troops that cannot be pushed. This seems ridiculous, but is an interpretation - barring clarification - which stands up to the RAW test.
"B" fails on two counts. Both BGs will be moving greater than the minimum distance required to line up, and this is in conflict with the conform wording on page 72-73, the diagram on page 72, the diagram on page 87, and the sequence of diagrams on pages 91 and 93 which appear to show an impact phase combat and the subsequent melee phase after conforming.
SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet »

gozerius wrote: Both BGs will be moving greater than the minimum distance required to line up . . .
The design merits of the different solutions aside, bear in mind in your argument on "minimum distance" that it is with regard to the presence and conforming of other bases.
gozerius
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Post by gozerius »

Take a good look at the diagram on p 87. The BG on the right must slide the minimum distance (right). It is blocked from sliding right by an enemy BG. It does not then slide left. Read the caption.
shall
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Post by shall »

a good debate and all points well made

the diag in 87 is a bit different

to make it equivalent we would need to drop the two right hand bases of the 6 base BG really

will need to re mull over when have time to do it justice

Si
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madcam2us
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Post by madcam2us »

A little thread necromancy...

We witnessed something that might shed some light on this debate...

Take the same example with the single BG being the active charger...

It must throw impact dice at both groups....

It must then conform to both... Fully Frontally even if the shorter move would be to regulate one enemey BG to overlap status...

I posted the situation in another question and would like similar debate... I think nowhere did anyone reverse the situation (of who was active). Had we done so, I think we would agree that the ONLY conform would be to be in full frontal contact with both...

Madcam.
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