Romans what are they good for absolutely nothing

[DaiSho]

Disappointing. I am busy building my Principate Roman army, so no turning back now.. but disappointing that they dont work better than that. Hopefully I can have better luck than you have had so far. I just cant believe that the Roman Legions wouldnt do well.

I think, like everything, it's not what you've got it's how you use it.

Now, with the Principate Roman you can add a small number of Cataphracts and Horse Archers and make a Palmyran army, or a few other bits and bobs and make a whole host of different armies. The good news is that you can tweek the army to go well in comps.

I've had totally horrible results vs Romans and so will avoid their infantry like the plague and try to kill their other troop types. So it all depends on who you're up against and how well they know how to exploit your weaknesses.

Ian

[AlanYork]

Played Later Macedonian versus Later Republican Roman last night and was soundly defeated. Yes bad luck did play a part, rolling one hit out of the first 8 dice when phalanx and legion collide doesn't help and you know it isn't going to be your night when Armenian cataphracts catch your evading cavalry, but my friend played to his strengths, ie the superior legionaries and won fair and square.

When my phalanx, consisting of 5 battle groups with a total frontage of 11 elements, hit his legions whose frontage was 12 elements it was a 50:50 fight; if I didn't get disrupted in the first round, I'd probably win, go disrupted and I'd lose in pretty short order. Unfortunately for me the latter happened and I lost. No complaints, just it wasn't my night.

It seems to me that in historical (well semi historical, it should have been Mid Republican Romans to be exactly right) match up like this, the Romans have a slight edge in that they lose slowly but win quickly, that seems about right to me. We also had a skirmish battle beforehand, which my javelinmen won, but it had no real effect on the main battle, other that a little desultory javelin throwing at the Roman battle line after his light archers ran off. My javelinmen were then forced out of the way as the main lines came to grips. Again, it looks about right to me, no more holding up the might of the Macedonian phalanx with a couple of slingers and a boy hurling rocks ala DBM.

Romans look pretty sound in historical match ups as far as I can see.

[expendablecinc]

I remember a game in which I was completely outmanoeuvred in the deployment phase and was able, with some screening, to transfer my 4x12 pike bases from center deployment zone to my right deployment zone in just a few turns.

As said, simply prevent pikes from 90° turn would have seemed just fine/realistic/fair to me.

Thomas

see how it goes deploying your 12 bae phalanx 1 base deep right in the middle of the table.

on turn 1 turn 90 degrees and march 3 inches then a second march straight ahead 3 more inches.
In turn 2 you turn back facing up and march then again (you'll be 2 bases deep and six wide at this stage but give the ending popsition options 78cms apart depending on where you want to be left or right.

ie you start 48 cm wide
turn to be 21 cm wide and travel 6 inches

By this time enemy will likely be within 6 inches if there are skirmishers about but you can then advance 3 inches and contract to be three deep ready for impact.

runmour is that although its possible its not really that useful (vulnerable to shooting) but worth trying out to see if the game impacts will prevent it.

[SirGarnet]

I know most people would say they would be all over that parade but I would just sit back and admire the show.

[stefoid]

only new to FoG , so cant comment on the effectiveness or otherwise of spear, pike and imapct foot.

some ignorant opinions

- I dont see why drilled pikes would be any less manouverable than other heavy infantry - they just have to shoulder pikes and march like the others.

however, they are ceratinly more suceptible to disordering effects, and I was thinking: what does an overlaping file really do to fight the enemy - it must turn in to fight the exposed flank of the enemy, or threaten to. Similarly, to defend against overlaping, the overlapped file must either turn to fight in two directions, or thin and extend the line to meet it. Probably what would happen would be a bit of both.

I reckon spears, and particualrly pikes, wouldnt handle this very well, certainly not as well as your swordsman.

so I was thinking, if the game designers did think that swordsmen were at a relative disadvantage to their spear weilding breathern, you could say that any file that was either overlapping or overlapped would count as DISORDERED while fighting. This wouldnt affect the number of dice used, but it would mean that for those files, pike and spear loose their STEADY status, and hence a POA.

This would model in a small way, an advantage of swordsman over long stick wielders in chaotic situations such as an overlap melee, which I think would be fair enough.

I guess this would result in spear/pike armies having more adaptable BGs on their flanks, such as medum foot, which I think is historical? So your swordsmen would be more likely to defeat the flank guards and it would be a race for the pike to break the centre before the flank guards failed and the pikes were subjected to dangerous overlaps. again, it sounds historical to me.

[hazelbark]

- I dont see why drilled pikes would be any less manouverable than other heavy infantry - they just have to shoulder pikes and march like the others.

They are not less. They are the same as any drilled HF. Weapon does not effect manuver.

however, they are ceratinly more suceptible to disordering effects, and I was thinking: what does an overlaping file really do to fight the enemy - it must turn in to fight the exposed flank of the enemy, or threaten to. Similarly, to defend against overlaping, the overlapped file must either turn to fight in two directions, or thin and extend the line to meet it. Probably what would happen would be a bit of both.

I think you are confusing the game terms overlap versus flank.

An overlap is esstentially more enemy to your front. No one is turning.

[stefoid]

- I dont see why drilled pikes would be any less manouverable than other heavy infantry - they just have to shoulder pikes and march like the others.

They are not less. They are the same as any drilled HF. Weapon does not effect manuver.

however, they are ceratinly more suceptible to disordering effects, and I was thinking: what does an overlaping file really do to fight the enemy - it must turn in to fight the exposed flank of the enemy, or threaten to. Similarly, to defend against overlaping, the overlapped file must either turn to fight in two directions, or thin and extend the line to meet it. Probably what would happen would be a bit of both.

I think you are confusing the game terms overlap versus flank.

An overlap is esstentially more enemy to your front. No one is turning.

I was responding to a post earlier in this thread someone was sugesting that pike should be less manouverable. Another potential source of disorder might be a failed CMT. If you fail a CMT, then you are disordered until your next move phase. Perhaps the reqard for the disorder is you still get to perform the complex move, .. maybe.

But on overlaps.. more enemy to your front? how are they fighting you since you dont have any front to meet them with? harsh langauge?

[hazelbark]

I was responding to a post earlier in this thread someone was sugesting that pike should be less manouverable. Another potential source of disorder might be a failed CMT. If you fail a CMT, then you are disordered until your next move phase. Perhaps the reqard for the disorder is you still get to perform the complex move, .. maybe.

But on overlaps.. more enemy to your front? how are they fighting you since you dont have any front to meet them with? harsh langauge?

Don't worry I didn't take offense nor did i mean to give.

I think the additional less manuverable suggestion for Pike is off the mark. Pike are good but not world beaters. I find they are easier to beat than the Roman legion. One flank charge on the pike and they feel a far more significant hurt than the legion. Too many gamers like to tinker with rules in general.

Well meet them to the front. People and units do not have the same width. Base width is a game artifice. Also BGs aren't always in 90 degree lines even if the bases look that way.

Think of 2 people meeting 3. If I don't have to turn my head the 3rd person is to my front, even if off center.

[Cassius]

Okay, so how does one use MRR or LRR vs. a Pike Army?

Pikes will be equal in impact, and have the advantage in Melee, unless disordered. They are cheap, so they should outnumber the Legionaires, and since they are cheap, they will have enough points left for some lancers to challenge the legionaries flanks with.

So the pike army is more or less better in Melee, and they have the points to be the more maneuverable army as well; with Cav, Cat, and light troops.

I think it would seem pointless to try to sit in rough terrain in hopes that the enemy will charge in to attack at a disadvantage, and avoiding combat with the pike core means that the enemy will have time to work his cav and lf around to flank you, or pin you between his pikes and light stuff.

I have been considering skipping the Roman Cav in order to expand the size of the army, but MRR is limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes. They are limited on Triarii as well.

I have been considering lining up the my Auxillery spearmen extrodinarii as my center/core matched against the pikes, and using the Legions to flank. Triarii would be good to counter cav with (except for cataphracts or companions), and then I would use the cruddy little roman light cav to flank around and head for the enemy camp to try to pull his cav off...

I am not sure how this battle plan will work. Any thoughts?

Is there some other way to counter a pike army that somebody can suggest?

[timmy1]

Cassius why do you think that the Pike are both cheaper and up in melee? To get the full depth benefit, the Pike will be more costly per base of frontage. To be evens at Impact, the Pike have to be 4 deep vs impact foot. Seleucid Prot, Superior Drilled Pike are 32 points per frontage, vs 20 for the Armoured, Average Drilled 2 deep Romans. If the Roman are LRR, the Armoured Superior Drilled will be 28 points per base of frontage. Also the Romans can survive fighting not steady - the PIKE really cannot so if they lose the impact they are toast. I think that the Romans will murder Pike.

[ars_belli]

Additional replies in Cassius' thread on the Seleucids: viewtopic.php?t=9975

Salve,
Scott

[nikgaukroger]

I have been considering skipping the Roman Cav in order to expand the size of the army, but MRR is limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes. They are limited on Triarii as well.

Only if you're just looking at the Superior ones - you can have up to 48 Hastati/Principes bases in total.

[timmy1]

For the MRR if you take all 48 Armoured Average Drilled Hastati & Principes, you have to have 12 Triarii at 13 each and 24 Velites (cheapest is 4 points each). This comes to 684 points if my maths is correct. If you use the smallest size BG that is 24 BG. (I don't see the need for Superior Protected troops as they are more costly). You can use larger BG (I would suggest so for the Velites) but I think this will frighten any Pike army.

[fredrik]

I think that the Romans will murder Pike.

Trust me they don't. Having played LRR versus seleucid quite a number of times the 24 point per file pikemen (average) will grind down the 28 point per file romans since they are up one POA in melee and there are four to six melee rounds to the one impact round where they are equal. Add to this - as has been pointed out - that the mounted arm of the hellenistics (lancers and cataphracts) will sweep away anything the romans can put up to protect the flanks of the legions.

It's the romans that are murdered. Repeatedly. It's not a fun matchup, believe me.

[timmy1]

Fredrik - in that case the combination of the superior re-rolls and the fragility of the Pike I would expect to give the Romans the edge. You are right about the points cost. I agree that the Seleucids to have the advantage elsewhere but I still fancy the LRR in the centre. Maybe that is why I lose so often.

[philqw78]

Hmm, 6 rounds of melee at evens POA, the Romans superior. The Pikes would never last that long. The only hope they have is to disrupt the Romans at impact where they have the advantage.

[timmy1]

Phil, why do you think '6 rounds of melee at evens POA'? Until now everyone on the thread seem to have thought it is + POA to the Pike unless they are no longer steady.

[Cassius]

I have been considering skipping the Roman Cav in order to expand the size of the army, but MRR is limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes. They are limited on Triarii as well.

Only if you're just looking at the Superior ones - you can have up to 48 Hastati/Principes bases in total.

Oh, so the limits do not span quality? I mean, I am not limited to 16 bases of Hastati/Principes total...just 16 veteran ones?

[Cassius]

Cassius why do you think that the Pike are both cheaper and up in melee? To get the full depth benefit, the Pike will be more costly per base of frontage. To be evens at Impact, the Pike have to be 4 deep vs impact foot. Seleucid Prot, Superior Drilled Pike are 32 points per frontage, vs 20 for the Armoured, Average Drilled 2 deep Romans. If the Roman are LRR, the Armoured Superior Drilled will be 28 points per base of frontage. Also the Romans can survive fighting not steady - the PIKE really cannot so if they lose the impact they are toast. I think that the Romans will murder Pike.

If you use Armored Average Drilled Romans, you will lose the reroll advantage that everybody thinks makes the Romans the equal of a pike phalanx.

Armored Superior Drilled Hastati will be 14 points per base, or 28 per frontage for 2 deep, and in Melee they will be + due to armor (they don't get the plus for ssw if the pike are steady.) So they Pike will have +1 net POA. They will be even-up in the impact phase.

That + to the pike gives the pike a 50% per dice, vs. a 33.33% for the Romans. In the case of a miss, the Romans have a 25% chance of a reroll, with a 33.33% chance of a hit on the reroll. So the total chance of a roman hit, per dice is a 38.88% chance (With superior troops. Average is a straight 33.33%. I wonder if the extra 4 points is worth an additional 4% chance to hit.)

So the Pike frontage is 32 points, vs. 28 points, and that 4 point difference buys them a 11.12% greater chance to hit with each dice. If we are talking about a pike line 4 base x 4 bases, and two legionary lines hitting them we are talking about 112 points roman, vs. 128 points pike.

Additionally, if the pike are in column (4 units side by side) as I have seen them stacked up, Each Roman frontage splits its hits across the Pike units: each frontage is a separate unit, needing its own HB2 to test for the first 3 ranks...each Roman frontage has to get 2 hits to even consider causing a test. (Am I right about this?) whereas each Pike frontage only has to score 1 hit to cause the Romans to test. (If the legion is deployed in a 2x2 next to a 2x2...if the roman is 1x4 in front of a 1x4 it's worse for the Roman.)

So each pike frontage for 4 extra points, still has an equal chance to hit in impact, and a 12% greater chance to hit in Melee. AND, the only way the Roman can make the Pike deployed 4x4 test after combat, is for both roman bases in the frontage to hit...a 15.11% chance. On the other hand the Pike only has to get 2 hits out of 4 to make the 2x2 roman test, or 2 out of 8 for the 1x4 roman to test. In the first case a (it's been a while since college stats class...I might have this wrong...) I think that 2 hits out of 4 chances on a d6 comes out to a 69% chance.

So the Roman has a 15% chance each turn of making the Pikes test for status, and the Romans have a 69% chance of making the Romans test. (per unit. Since the Romans have 4 chances vs. the Pikes 2 chances it gets a little more complex, but that's as far as my math can take me at the moment.)

So what I am saying, is that Hastati vs. Pikes, straight up, equals a great probability for a loss vs. Pikemen.
It will take 6 rounds of combat before the pike reach a 50% certainty of taking a cohesion test, whereas the Romans will reach the 50% mark with each round. Given that there is a 41.67% chance of failure with each test, the Romans reach a 50% certainty of being disordered by the second round of Melee combat. The Pike don't reach a 50% certainty of going disordered until round 10!

So my point is not that pikes are overpowered...it's only that Pike should not be hit head-on by MRR or LRR Romans. There has to be another tactic for taking them on. This is why I was thinking about using Auxillery Offensive Spearmen in the middle (2 ranks deep) to tie up the Pikes, and use the Legionaires to try to manuever around the flanks.

The Roman Auxilliary Spearmen are/can be, I think, average, drilled, offensive spearmen. That should give them a + in impact, making them equal, and a + for off spear, and another + for better armor vs. the Pikes in Melee, making them even. Even with 4 ranks of pikemen.
I don't have my books at work, so I might be off on those, but I think the auxilliary spear are not all that expensive either, and if they can equal the Pikes, it could tip the balance.

Just a thought. I have not played much, as I am still painting my army, but I am hoping that will give me a way to fight pikes.

[Cassius]

Hmm, 6 rounds of melee at evens POA, the Romans superior. The Pikes would never last that long. The only hope they have is to disrupt the Romans at impact where they have the advantage.

Please see my above post. The Pikes will take 10 rounds to reach a 50% likelyhood of losing cohesion/good order. The romans reach that every other round. So the Roman legion should break and run in about 8 rounds.

The Pike have the advantage for similar points: 112 vs 128. I think you need to hit the pikemen with something else and maneuver around them for a flank attack. The only problem is that the Pike armies tend to beat romans on cav and flanking troops. It will be a puzzle to find a good tactic.