Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

[Izgar]

OK, I'll add some ideas, but it is quite difficult, as a lot of units were produced only in very small numbers, and I don't like too many 'what-if' models. But since there was a request for suggestions and upgrade paths for units in some specific classes (early self-propelled artillery, etc.), I had to get creative. Since I write a lot, I will use several posts to keep it manageable.

(SE) Infantry

Still on my wish list, some Soviet 'HW' infantry.

Perhaps a nice SE unit would be the elite 'Razvedchik' (Разведчики, scouts), which had camouflaged uniforms ('amoeba' pattern seems commonly mentioned). They often operated behind enemy lines, so they would be comparable to the British SAS SE infantry units?



Seen here, a Razvedchik scout (left) meeting with partisans.

SE Tanks

Speaking of SE units, I have an idea: some Soviet tanks were built with extra armour plates added to the hull and turret, so-called 'Ehkranami' models (I've come across the phrases 'с экранами'/'экранированных' : 'with screens'/'shielded'). This might help distinguish SE tanks and give them a better chance of survival, which might be a more appropiate bonus than extra firepower (like the German SE tanks).

I've found that uparmoured versions were built of the BT-7, T-26, T-28, T-34 and KV-1.

The regular tanks might benefit from some attention as well, but I'll continue with those later.

not a good idea to do a separate unit 'Razvedchik' because in the Soviet army 'Razvedchik' acted as a part of small groups of 3-6 soldiers in the all types of troops and did not act alone in large groups (battalion regiment brigade, etc.).
In the Red Army Se (infantry) can have all types of troops (except conscript and partisans) that can have a title (Guards, a special (osobaya), private (otdelnaya)) for a visual difference they can make in camouflage 'amoeba'

[Izgar]

SE Tanks
'Ehkranami' models in the Red Army was not widely used tanks with ('Ehkranami' models) most elite armored brigades and army were called (guards, special (osobaya), private (otdelnaya)) and used all types of tanks.
SE Tanks Red Army should be called (guards, special (osobaya), private (otdelnaya)) and different visual distinction camouflage Soviet tanks (brown-green) or (white and green).

[Izgar]

here are some pictures of elite Soviet troops (there is and 'Razvedchik)

[Razz1]

I have a NKVD unit in the AT and AA Mod.

It is one more attack than Conscript and has 11 Strength. It also has the benefit of being camouflage.

[LandMarine47]

Can we see German Volksgrenadiers? German form of conscripts

[ThvN]

Thanks for the contribution, Izgar, nice pictures. Are those Fedorov Avtomat (Автомат Фёдорова) I see in the hands of the three soldiers? That is a very rare weapon, were they used during WW2?

Anyway, some more suggestions:

Tanks

Flamethrower tanks would be nice, some examples of models:
OT-133 (based on the T-26)
OT-34 (based on T-34)
KV-8/KV-8S (based on KV-1)


T-34-57 (already mentioned earlier, a T-34 with 57mm anti-tank gun). Expensive and rare model.

PT-34 (T-34 with PT-3 mine roller)


The early T-34 models in the game are depicted by a single icon, but that shows the earliest version with the L-11 gun. This was used on the Model 1940 and quickly replaced by the better F-34 gun for the later models. The barrel was longer and mounted higher, which makes the icon look strange when it is used for the later version. See this picture for a comparison, compare the two tanks on the right.

More suggestions:

T-28 (the heavier T-35 might be a bit too much, only sixty were built, although that is still more than many German units in PzC)

T-44 and IS-3. These two weren't used in combat in Europe but the T-44 was available early enough to have done so (T-44 was introduced late 1944, the IS-3 from May 1945)

The KV series might need a little work, to be honest. The letter (A, B, C) designations are German, they should more accurately be like the T-34 (KV-1 model 1940, etc.)
Maybe change all the early versions to move=4, and introduce the KV-1S, which sits between the KV-1 and the KV-85. It was designed for better mobility so this can have move=5. This gives a better flowing upgrade path for the series as well.

Making the KV-2 switchable would be very nice, great idea.

M4A2(76)W Sherman Lend-Lease tank. This variant was especially produced for the LL program, and as many as 2000 were delivered during 1944-1945


Recon

Very difficult, this one. The M3A1 ('White Scout Car') and GAZ-67B get a big 'thumbs up' from me. I'm intrigued by the mention of the T-38, an amphibious scout tank. Will amphibious movement be added as well? For recon planes I think the U-2 (Po-2) would be very suitable.

Anti-aircraft

The 25mm and a mobile version on a truck/halftrack would be fine. And instead of the SU-6, maybe the YaG-10 truck with 76mm gun would be better, still a rare model but not just a prototype. For examples of trucks with AAA, see here

The SU-11 (which was a prototype, like the T-90) later became the ZSU-37 I think.

I'll continue later, the early mobile artillery and anti-tank units are a bit tricky, but there are some units that might be appropiate.

[Izgar]

thanks for the helpful yes indeed this picture depicts Fedorov automatic system (modernization 1923) which is armed with an assault group of special purpose (OSNAZ) photo taken in one of the Mannerheim Line fortifications captured in winter 1940 (really very rare weapon)

1_6_67_1.jpg (39.65 KiB) Viewed 7766 times

[Izgar]

Thanks for the contribution, Izgar, nice pictures. Are those Fedorov Avtomat (Автомат Фёдорова) I see in the hands of the three soldiers? That is a very rare weapon, were they used during WW2?

Anyway, some more suggestions:

Tanks

Flamethrower tanks would be nice, some examples of models:
OT-133 (based on the T-26)
OT-34 (based on T-34)
KV-8/KV-8S (based on KV-1)


T-34-57 (already mentioned earlier, a T-34 with 57mm anti-tank gun). Expensive and rare model.

PT-34 (T-34 with PT-3 mine roller)


The early T-34 models in the game are depicted by a single icon, but that shows the earliest version with the L-11 gun. This was used on the Model 1940 and quickly replaced by the better F-34 gun for the later models. The barrel was longer and mounted higher, which makes the icon look strange when it is used for the later version. See this picture for a comparison, compare the two tanks on the right.

More suggestions:

T-28 (the heavier T-35 might be a bit too much, only sixty were built, although that is still more than many German units in PzC)

T-44 and IS-3. These two weren't used in combat in Europe but the T-44 was available early enough to have done so (T-44 was introduced late 1944, the IS-3 from May 1945)

The KV series might need a little work, to be honest. The letter (A, B, C) designations are German, they should more accurately be like the T-34 (KV-1 model 1940, etc.)
Maybe change all the early versions to move=4, and introduce the KV-1S, which sits between the KV-1 and the KV-85. It was designed for better mobility so this can have move=5. This gives a better flowing upgrade path for the series as well.

Making the KV-2 switchable would be very nice, great idea.

M4A2(76)W Sherman Lend-Lease tank. This variant was especially produced for the LL program, and as many as 2000 were delivered during 1944-1945


Recon

Very difficult, this one. The M3A1 ('White Scout Car') and GAZ-67B get a big 'thumbs up' from me. I'm intrigued by the mention of the T-38, an amphibious scout tank. Will amphibious movement be added as well? For recon planes I think the U-2 (Po-2) would be very suitable.

Anti-aircraft

The 25mm and a mobile version on a truck/halftrack would be fine. And instead of the SU-6, maybe the YaG-10 truck with 76mm gun would be better, still a rare model but not just a prototype. For examples of trucks with AAA, see here

The SU-11 (which was a prototype, like the T-90) later became the ZSU-37 I think.

I'll continue later, the early mobile artillery and anti-tank units are a bit tricky, but there are some units that might be appropiate.

OT- 133 add to the game
OT- 34 add to the game
KV-8 NOT add to the game
T- 34 -57 ( add to the game " boss unit " Change square KV-5 fantasy )
PT- 34 add to the game
T- 28 only as "the boss unit"
T- 44 and IS- 3 NOT add to the game
M4A2 ( 76 ) W Sherman add to the game
Recon
T- 38

T- 38

20101109203115.jpg (86.04 KiB) Viewed 7758 times

add to the game (very interesting amphibious scout tank is widely used in the 39 -40- 41years Red Army )
M3A1 add to the game
GAZ-67B NOT add to the game ( the game add Willys MB , Dodge WC- 51 Lend Lease over the massive use )
U- 2 (Po- 2) add to the game (just add a Focke-Wulf Fw 189 Uhu)
Anti-aircraft
SU- 6 does not add to the game
ZSU- 37 does not add to the game
( To add to the game GAZ-AA , GAZ-AAA 7.62mm installation of 4 M (4 Maxim machine gun ) just add GAZ-MM 25 -mm gun 72 -K )

[Razz1]

I already have these in my Mod and they work very well in the campaign and DLC's



NKVD (c) a good unit to hold the line and ambush with its camouflage ability, weak like conscript
Regular AT same as Piat infantry for British
BT-7M mobile artillery unit
T-34/57 ZiS-2 two versions early war, then production stopped and resumed in 1943
KV-2 Art was used in artillery role, though not often
203mm M1931 a valuable artillery piece to keep the Germans advance in check
SU-1-12 early mobile artillery unit
25mm M1940 72-K early SPAA unit
25mm 72-K AT switchable for defense
GAZ AAA 4M early SPAA unit
Z25mm SPAA early SPAA unit
Z38mm SPAA a SPAA unit using captured German 38mm Flak
Polikarpov I-15 a must have fighter with ability to bomb well
P-39 Air Cobra lend lease early war fighter
P-40 lend lease fighter
U-2 an excellent scout plane
Petlyakov Pe-2l more effective strategic bomber
Petlyakov Pe-3bis more effective strategic bomber
Il-10 another version of IL-10 slightly improved version
ANT-40/SB early war strategic bomber
ANT-58 early war strategic bomber
Heavy Draft Horses a must have! Russian and German forces were moved with millions of horses. Only after lend lease did the Soviet army become more mobile
T-28 early war tank
T-28E early war tank
ZIS 5 Truck a real Soviet truck
GAZ-AAA early Soviet truck
GMC CCKW Flat Bed lend lease truck
Ya-11 Komintern artillery tractors
Stalinetz S-65 artillery tractors
Stalinetz S-2 artillery tractors
Voroshilovets Tractor artillery tractors
YaAZ-3 early Soviet truck
ZIS-42 a real Soviet truck
ZIS 5 Flatbed a real Soviet truck
280mm M1939 heavy artillery
BA-10 armor car
KV-1B another more powerful KV
B-25C Mitchell lend lease strategic bomber
M-72 Infantry early motorcycle infantry
Minenfeld must have minefields

[Izgar]

I already have these in my Mod and they work very well in the campaign and DLC's



NKVD (c) a good unit to hold the line and ambush with its camouflage ability, weak like conscript
Regular AT same as Piat infantry for British
BT-7M mobile artillery unit
T-34/57 ZiS-2 two versions early war, then production stopped and resumed in 1943
KV-2 Art was used in artillery role, though not often
203mm M1931 a valuable artillery piece to keep the Germans advance in check
SU-1-12 early mobile artillery unit
25mm M1940 72-K early SPAA unit
25mm 72-K AT switchable for defense
GAZ AAA 4M early SPAA unit
Z25mm SPAA early SPAA unit
Z38mm SPAA a SPAA unit using captured German 38mm Flak
Polikarpov I-15 a must have fighter with ability to bomb well
P-39 Air Cobra lend lease early war fighter
P-40 lend lease fighter
U-2 an excellent scout plane
Petlyakov Pe-2l more effective strategic bomber
Petlyakov Pe-3bis more effective strategic bomber
Il-10 another version of IL-10 slightly improved version
ANT-40/SB early war strategic bomber
ANT-58 early war strategic bomber
Heavy Draft Horses a must have! Russian and German forces were moved with millions of horses. Only after lend lease did the Soviet army become more mobile
T-28 early war tank
T-28E early war tank
ZIS 5 Truck a real Soviet truck
GAZ-AAA early Soviet truck
GMC CCKW Flat Bed lend lease truck
Ya-11 Komintern artillery tractors
Stalinetz S-65 artillery tractors
Stalinetz S-2 artillery tractors
Voroshilovets Tractor artillery tractors
YaAZ-3 early Soviet truck
ZIS-42 a real Soviet truck
ZIS 5 Flatbed a real Soviet truck
280mm M1939 heavy artillery
BA-10 armor car
KV-1B another more powerful KV
B-25C Mitchell lend lease strategic bomber
M-72 Infantry early motorcycle infantry
Minenfeld must have minefields

from a historical point of view I found in your mod a lot of information not corresponding to reality sorry.

tank BT-7M (production 1939) has not been artillery modification (perhaps you meant BT-7A (art) ?)

You have all the bombers are listed as strategic this is not fully true the Soviet classification. The Soviets had only two models that can be attributed to strategic bombers of this TB-3 (ANT-6) and PE-8 (other designations TB-7 and ANT-42). Other bombers they have classified as a front-line bombers.

PE-3 (bis) has not been on the front line bomber ( it was a Soviet heavy fighter analogue of the me-110)
Il-10 was not used on the Eastern front the first use of this type (Il-10) was held in August 1945 against the Japanese troops in China-Manchuria.
Tu-2 (ANT-58) this front-line bomber (started massively used in early 1943 years in the Soviet army).
instead front bomber B-25C Mitchell Soviet troops massaged used nother type of bomber Douglas A-20 Havoc.
Art tractor Comintern not had the name of the Ya-11 (Ya-11,Ya-12 is another type of Soviet tractors)
203mm M1931 had a name in the Soviet army as the 203-mm howitzer 1931 (B-4)
280mm M1939 had a name in the Soviet army as 280 mm mortar 1939 (Br-5)
just can't really confirm participation in a war of such types of Soviet technology as YaAZ-3 and SU-1-12
mass frontline bomber beginning of the war Tupolev SB (ANT-40) was not considered in Soviet aircraft classification as a strategic bomber.

[Lexx_SV]

If done wisely, you need to select some groups of units of different time periods (at least a beginning, a middle and an end of war)

[Razz1]

I was recalling my units from memory.

I have the 280mm as a Br-5 and the BT-7A as an artillery piece.
I called the ANT-58 an early war bomber but it is listed as available in March 1942
I do not have an icon for a Russian A-20
I meant to call the other bombers tactical as that's what they are in the game. I misspoke about them be strategic.
I stand corrected on the Pe-3bis, I will have to update the files and statistics. Thank you!
I will also review the name for Komintern
I have Order of Battles with the YaAZ-3 truck and SU-1-12 artillery unit.
My data shows the IL-10 was used in 1945. It's already in the stock game. i just added another version with rockets.
thanks for the review.

[ThvN]

If done wisely, you need to select some groups of units of different time periods (at least a beginning, a middle and an end of war)

That is why I have difficulty with making good suggestions. Uran21 gave and asked for some ideas for early war units, but for some types (self-propelled artillery/anti-tank) only prototypes or very rare models existed. So it is inevitable that some very rare units will be added to the list, to create enough diversity.

Artillery

203mm howitzer is a good choice.

76.2mm: I think it would be a nice idea to make the existing 76.2mm artillery guns switchable like the 25-pdr has been switchable for Allied Corps. The correct icons are already there, the only question is wether the existing scenarios that feature it won't be affected too much.

Early self-propelled units are much harder:

SU-1-12 (or SU-12?). A heavy truck with short 76.2mm gun mounted on the back (it would have to use the portee 'backfire' trait to properly animate it, I think). It seems they were last used in the Winter War against Finland, but I saw one mention of them being used until 1941.

SU-26 (or SU-T-26?), same gun as the SU-12 but on a T-26 chassis this time. It seems they were quickly manufactured when the invasion started, and although few were made they were definately used.

The SU-5-2 was made in very small numbers (10-12?), but had a 122mm howitzer, so it would be a bit more like the German 'Sturmpanzer I'. I've come across a picture of one that was destroyed, so they were apparently used in combat? The other two versions remained only prototypes, like the SU-6 mobile AAA.

I also have the BT-7A on my wishlist, but I wouldn't use all my suggestions, these are just ideas to choose from of course.

A unit that falls between two categories is the SU-76i (see more about their use here), which was used like the Sturmgeschütze, so it might be more appropiate as an anti-tank or switchable unit like other existing SU models. Note that this unit was remanufactured from captured German tanks (Panzer III, StuG), but still about 200 were made.

Some rocket artillery ideas:

BM-8-24 (82mm rockets on T-60 tank chassis)

M-30 (300mm rockets, like the mobile BM-31 has, but this is an earlier weapon that fired from a static frame, so these might make a nice mid-war heavy rocket launcher similar to the towed German 30cm Nebelwerfer)

[LandMarine47]

Can we see German Volksgrenadiers? While the infantry was bad, they had very good weapons, so good with defense, bad offense, and 15 Steps

[Izgar]

Why add to the game such rarities and prototypes, as SU-1-12 even when there is no certainty of their participation in the early war ??? When the Soviet has a tank artillery support BT-7A (produced 155 copies) and a tank assault support kV-2 (produced 334 copies). Just do for them switches (tank/artillery) and no problems.

[Izgar]

If done wisely, you need to select some groups of units of different time periods (at least a beginning, a middle and an end of war)

That is why I have difficulty with making good suggestions. Uran21 gave and asked for some ideas for early war units, but for some types (self-propelled artillery/anti-tank) only prototypes or very rare models existed. So it is inevitable that some very rare units will be added to the list, to create enough diversity.

Artillery

203mm howitzer is a good choice.

76.2mm: I think it would be a nice idea to make the existing 76.2mm artillery guns switchable like the 25-pdr has been switchable for Allied Corps. The correct icons are already there, the only question is wether the existing scenarios that feature it won't be affected too much.

Early self-propelled units are much harder:

SU-1-12 (or SU-12?). A heavy truck with short 76.2mm gun mounted on the back (it would have to use the portee 'backfire' trait to properly animate it, I think). It seems they were last used in the Winter War against Finland, but I saw one mention of them being used until 1941.

SU-26 (or SU-T-26?), same gun as the SU-12 but on a T-26 chassis this time. It seems they were quickly manufactured when the invasion started, and although few were made they were definately used.

The SU-5-2 was made in very small numbers (10-12?), but had a 122mm howitzer, so it would be a bit more like the German 'Sturmpanzer I'. I've come across a picture of one that was destroyed, so they were apparently used in combat? The other two versions remained only prototypes, like the SU-6 mobile AAA.

I also have the BT-7A on my wishlist, but I wouldn't use all my suggestions, these are just ideas to choose from of course.

A unit that falls between two categories is the SU-76i (see more about their use here), which was used like the Sturmgeschütze, so it might be more appropiate as an anti-tank or switchable unit like other existing SU models. Note that this unit was remanufactured from captured German tanks (Panzer III, StuG), but still about 200 were made.

Some rocket artillery ideas:

BM-8-24 (82mm rockets on T-60 tank chassis)

M-30 (300mm rockets, like the mobile BM-31 has, but this is an earlier weapon that fired from a static frame, so these might make a nice mid-war heavy rocket launcher similar to the towed German 30cm Nebelwerfer)

antitank ZIS-30

[LandMarine47]

Can we see the 88 Artillery version as well?

[sn0wball]

Perhaps the KV-2 could be redesignated an Artillery unit instead of a Tank.

[comradep]

As to Soviet HW infantry: why not model the MG/artillery battalions? Corps or army assets, but similar to heavy weapon units. I've always interpreted HW infantry as "infantry supported by a heavy weapons company or unit of some sort" not necessarily as "infantry with heavy weapons" as most infantry units had organic heavy weapons of some sort. The Soviet trend to decentralize helps, in a way, as unit types like the MG/artillery battalion or ski battalions would be likely to be directly attached to a division or organic in Western armies.

If units can switch into a different unit type, the cost would need to balance that. There were some PG2 mods where Tank riders could switch into a T-34 as their transport, yet they were roughly as expensive as infantry units even though you got a T-34 unit for free with it.

One of the issues might be that Soviet individual unit quality was often not as high as their Allied or Axis counterparts, so either you'd need more units of a certain type, pretend the Soviet units represent a unit one size larger than their enemy counterparts, or make them somewhat better than they should be in stats. That was one of my gripes with PG Soviet mods: it often felt like there were not enough Soviet units, and the Soviet units that were there could be used more efficiently than their real-life counterparts of a similar size and organization.

As to prototypes: personally, I'd prefer more historically accurate variants of vehicles that were actually used in reasonable numbers (so we can track them throughout their development process, just like we can do now for many German tanks) over adding prototypes that had production runs of a handful up to at most a few dozen vehicles.

A vehicle like the ZiS-30 was actually used, but it's also a rather good vehicle for the initial months of Barbarossa where T-34's and KV-1's would be rare, so they could cause balance issues like they did in some PG mods. If prototypes or rare vehicles would be added, give them to the player through a special event or at the start, don't allow them to be purchased I'd say.

[ThvN]

I understand not everyone likes the prototype units, I'm not a fan of them either. But the game is already full of such units, for all sides. So if the developers want to include similar units for the Soviets, it would be fitting for the way the game is set up. And modding the game can accomodate a lot of personal wishes.

Personally, I don't like certain ahistorical units and will usually avoid buying them, but for others who like them I would still like to see them in the game, as long as they don't unbalance things. Right now every available unit can be bought in great numbers as long as you can afford them, although some might actually have been very limited in production (Sturmpanzer 1 is a nice example). So it is difficult to draw the line between historical and ahistorical, and a certain 'what-if?' element can be nice as well.

As for more units, everything I had on my list was already mentioned at least once, for example the ZiS-30 antitank and P-39 fighter (and its development, the P-63, although it might be a bit far-fetched, it was available and used in combat).

The horse transport would be very nice, I'm looking forward to it.

There are some units I am unsure of, like the SU-85M, because that was very quickly superceded by the SU-100. In the game the SU-100 becomes available in december 1944, so it might be a nice 'in-between' upgrade for the SU-85 a few months before the SU-100.

There were some PG2 mods where Tank riders could switch into a T-34 as their transport, yet they were roughly as expensive as infantry units even though you got a T-34 unit for free with it.

While modding I have thought about how tank-riders could be modeled in the game, indeed some sort of switchable unit might just work?

A vehicle like the ZiS-30 was actually used, but it's also a rather good vehicle for the initial months of Barbarossa where T-34's and KV-1's would be rare, so they could cause balance issues like they did in some PG mods. If prototypes or rare vehicles would be added, give them to the player through a special event or at the start, don't allow them to be purchased I'd say.

T-34's and KV-1 were far from rare, at the end of 1941 the Soviets had already built 3000 T-34's and 1500 KV tanks, much higher than the Panzer III/IV production up until that point. Of course, not all reached the frontlines and spare parts were scarce. So buy them all you want, it's still historically accurate.

I've used single KV units in multiplayer games (Rush to Moscow) to wreak havoc in the Axis rear for many turns on end (84 fuel/11ammo is way too much) and frequently wondered what the game designers would do to stop a player in a Soviet campaign simply buying some of these and flatten all before him.

What I'm trying to say is that it might be more beneficial to review some of the existing units and tweak some of their stats instead of adding too many new ones. The KV-1'A' (model 1940) would be simply too good to ignore, is available from november 1940 (earlier than the T-34/40) and the even tougher 'B' is for sale one month after the start of Barbarossa. These were in reality very slow and prone to gearbox/clutch failures, but in the game they have move 5 and a lot of fuel, so they are very mobile, even more so than the early T-34/40 (which has very little fuel, probably to model its mechanical problems?).