Kinked Columns v2

[gozerius]

My chief objection is to the idea that a kinked column can reform. Based on Iversonjm's statements, it was apparent that he was envisioning the ability of a kinked column to reform in any direction a base in the column was facing.
Now that that has been settled, (OK, not officially until the FAQ is produced),
I will again voice my opinion as to which maneuvers a kinked column can perform. Any advance allowed to a non-kinked column. An expansion, since in an expansion you are increasing your frontage, thus are no longer a kinked column. A 180 degree turn, because the BG maintains the same footprint. You can argue about the difficulty of performing a counter-column with a kink in it, but I leave that to others to hash out. Counter- columns are tough to do even under ideal circumstances. 90 degree turns are problematic because there is not a straight side edge to form on. If 90 degree turns are allowed, then they must be executed in the standard fashion, with the side edge of the lead base becoming the new front edge of the whole formation. Depending on the angle of the kink this could produce a very radically different footprint of the turned BG.

[gozerius]

I remember my days on the parade field, doing divisional change of command ceromonies. We were deployed in line by battalion for the speech, then wheeled by company into column for the pass in review. There was a lot of marching in place if you were on the inside of the wheel. The guys on the outside needed very long strides.

[dave_r]

Sorry - that's utter rubbish - the British wheeled in Napoleonics (or Wellingtonic as somebody pointed out to me) all the time.

The command would be Regiment, left Wheel. When enough had been done they simply stopped.

It also happened in the American Civil War all the time.

I'm sorry - that's utter rubbish.


How can THIS wheel?

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Direction of march up the page (or down, it doesn't matter).

Remembering that the front of a base in FoG is MANY men across, not just 4 little lead figures.

It CAN'T wheel, because while #'s 2 is waiting for #1 to complete the move, #4 and 6 is standing on top of him.

Thus, it MUST be a form:

The form is described in this 1915 drill manual on page 51.

You'll notice that (from my picture) 4 and 6 would do an incline, (so, incidentally would the entire front rank. They then march out the required spacing and then stop. During this whole time the formation ISN'T formed. It's not totally unformed, but it's NOT 'battle ready'.

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/Prim ... 914_UK.pdf

So, lets say that the figure photographed at the top of this thread was on the battlefield in real life, it would be something like this:

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All facing up the page 'in column' but it's not in column, it's in a series of battle lines that LOOK like a column in the game, but NO battle formation was 3 men wide.

If THAT wheeled, you'd end up with the last '6' trying to share place with the first '2' and everyone in front of him.

So, you are ignoring historical instances of units wheeling and coming up with some geometric arguments "proving" a unit couldn't?

Well, thats me convinced....

Have you ever watched trooping the colour? That shows how the above formation would wheel.

[philqw78]

I've done the Troop Dave. (but not for the Queen, God bless her)

For the march past its all 'By the left change direction left on the march, left form.'

Apart from at the begining where they turn about, change direction right at the halt, right form, then about turn again so the right marker will be closest the Queen, God bless her, on the march past.

The only wheeling is by column of route to get onto horse guards, in cloumn roughly 3 or 6 paces wide

[zoltan]

The FoG wheeling mechanism of pivoting on one front corner is a simplification of British army drill (goodness knows what the ancients actually did). Wheeling from a long line doesn't happen as per the FoG mechanism. The troops in line wheel by divisions or sub divisions (platoons) through 90 degrees and hey presto end up in line again.

[ravenflight]

Have you ever watched trooping the colour? That shows how the above formation would wheel.

I've participated in them. Princess Anne's to be precise.

Interestingly I pointed to an 1915 drill manual which would show EXACTLY how the trooping of the Colour would be done, and it's NOT by wheeling.

You might be calling it wheeling, but a wheel is where you roll around a central point like the spokes on a wheel... funny how the term comes about huh? This is NOT what happens when a line 'wheels'.

Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3hvd7UX_Ns

Particularly look at 48:02 until 48:20 - it is NOT a wheel. It's a form. A left form on the march to be precise. And 54:12 is a wheel. A left wheel to be precise.

At 1:00:05 you hear him way "at the halt right form" and what the hell... they do a... right form. But don't worry Dave - you know more than a commander of the Guards.

You might enjoy 1:02:00 on - it's kinda the entire post I put up earlier (unfortunately in slow time)

Imagine a formation fighting half way through this like at 1:05:32.

Dave, you're an idiot - you DON'T know what you're talking about and I happen to know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Don't argue with someone who knows more than you.

[philqw78]

The link Raven put up is great!

Look at page 105 for 'wheeling' a column, doing a right form, and page 99 close column forming line on the march to show how difficult it must have been just to turn to the right from column of march.

You would think it would have been easier for undrilled troops as they can just head in that direction and end up with those that want to be at the front in the front and the rest hiding behind, but then you need to have people that want to be at the front and not end up with just a blob.

[ravenflight]

The FoG wheeling mechanism of pivoting on one front corner is a simplification of British army drill (goodness knows what the ancients actually did). Wheeling from a long line doesn't happen as per the FoG mechanism. The troops in line wheel by divisions or sub divisions (platoons) through 90 degrees and hey presto end up in line again.

Yeah, I understand it's a simplification. What I'm saying is that you can't just say 'oh, they turn around and all is good'. Take a look at the Guards I put up earlier and imagine being half way through and deciding "Oh, I'm gonna expand now" or "Oh, I'm going to turn around and do it all backwards.

Drill is a LOT more difficult than we pretend it is.

[dave_r]

Have you ever watched trooping the colour? That shows how the above formation would wheel.

I've participated in them. Princess Anne's to be precise.

Interestingly I pointed to an 1915 drill man
ual which would show EXACTLY how the trooping of the Colour would be done, and it's NOT by wheeling.

You might be calling it wheeling, but a wheel is where you roll around a central point like the spokes on a wheel... funny how the term comes about huh? This is NOT what happens when a line 'wheels'.

Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3hvd7UX_Ns

Particularly look at 48:02 until 48:20 - it is NOT a wheel. It's a form. A left form on the march to be precise. And 54:12 is a wheel. A left wheel to be precise.

At 1:00:05 you hear him way "at the halt right form" and what the hell... they do a... right form. But don't worry Dave - you know more than a commander of the Guards.

You might enjoy 1:02:00 on - it's kinda the entire post I put up earlier (unfortunately in slow time)

Imagine a formation fighting half way through this like at 1:05:32.

Dave, you're an idiot - you DON'T know what you're talking about and I happen to know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Don't argue with someone who knows more than you.

Except you know nothing about how the ancients did it? Ww 1 drill manuals arent relevant, neither are any formation with modern weapons as they dont need to be shoulder to shoulder.

[ravenflight]

Except you know nothing about how the ancients did it? Ww 1 drill manuals arent relevant, neither are any formation with modern weapons as they dont need to be shoulder to shoulder.

You're a funny man Dave. You've had your argument PROVED wrong and still continue arguing.

No, we don't know how they 'wheeled' in ancient times. Maybe someone has a Roman drill manual out there somewhere, but I can assure you they DIDN'T wheel. They can't have. It's physically impossible. If it were possible don't you think the armies of Fredrick the Great onwards would have wheeled as it's more simple than forming? Oh, no - they probably wanted to just make things more complex for the hell of it.

I'm not arguing with you any further Dave. If you think you're right go on with your ignorant ways. I know I AM right. Physical presence of other soldiers make a formation 'wider' than 5 or 6 soldiers unable to wheel. So run along and be ignorant and don't admit when you're wrong. I'll just chalk it up to your arrogance.

[dave_r]

Except you know nothing about how the ancients did it? Ww 1 drill manuals arent relevant, neither are any formation with modern weapons as they dont need to be shoulder to shoulder.

You're a funny man Dave. You've had your argument PROVED wrong and still continue arguing.

No, we don't know how they 'wheeled' in ancient times. Maybe someone has a Roman drill manual out there somewhere, but I can assure you they DIDN'T wheel. They can't have. It's physically impossible. If it were possible don't you think the armies of Fredrick the Great onwards would have wheeled as it's more simple than forming? Oh, no - they probably wanted to just make things more complex for the hell of it.

I'm not arguing with you any further Dave. If you think you're right go on with your ignorant ways. I know I AM right. Physical presence of other soldiers make a formation 'wider' than 5 or 6 soldiers unable to wheel. So run along and be ignorant and don't admit when you're wrong. I'll just chalk it up to your arrogance.

After literally seconds of research i found this. Im trying to manually type in this link

Www.brigadeofguards.org/guardsmansguide/

Read the bit in there about wheeling.

I understand im probably wasting my time because you are an utter clown.

[ravenflight]

After literally seconds of research i found this. Im trying to manually type in this link

http://Www.brigadeofguards.org/guardsmansguide/

Read the bit in there about wheeling.

I understand im probably wasting my time because you are an utter clown.

As I said Dave, I'm not going to argue this with you any more. I've showed you a 1915 drill manual. I've showed you the Guards doing EXACTLY what I said they would do... and you come back with a recreation society website.

Enough said.

[philqw78]

Read the bit in there about wheeling.

read it. Wheeling can be done in ranks or files, but only three ranks. Three ranks is not column of march a number sub-units wide.
Get back on your unicycle and put your big shoes on Dave.

[nikgaukroger]

If the children would kindly stop squabbling ...

[philqw78]

Yeah, you tell 'em Nik.

[Sarmaticus]

Isn't that a wheel that the band does at 1.42 in the proferred video?

[ravenflight]

Isn't that a wheel that the band does at 1.42 in the proferred video?

Sorry - I replied without actually looking as I was going by memory of another formation change the band did.

I'm tired now - I'll reply later on, but that formation was actually just following the road around which isn't really a wheel, and would not be able to do a similar maneuver as at the top of this thread by 'following a road'. People would just get mashed up into one another.

[ravenflight]

If the children would kindly stop squabbling ...

I'm sorry Nik, and other listers (I guess even Dave included). I get rather hot under the collar when I'm being disagreed with in something that I know VERY well is the case. I've argued the point many times and I KNOW what I'm talking about. I'm tired of people who quite possibly haven't set foot on a parade ground telling me how drill is done. If they have set foot on a parade ground they didn't listen to the commands.

Anyway - I'll try to remain more civil.

[Sarmaticus]

Isn't that a wheel that the band does at 1.42 in the proferred video?

This is why I say (in answer to an earlier question) a unit SHOULD complete the 'wheel' (which is actually a form) before any other formation change is permitted. I have no idea what the rules say.

Thanks for that. I was getting confused with the - was it AncMed? - wheeling argument

[philqw78]

So back to the argument then