Shifting into Melee and Expanding

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:43 pm

Page 91. Impact is only fought between bases coming into contact via charge, not ones that were already touching. So even if one of these 'corner contact becomes a charge' things is legal - the base that started in corner contact cannot itself fight impact.... so someone suggestion of a one-wide unit wheeling to charge is clearly 'right out'... if you had a second file make contact becuase of a 90 wheel it would fight... but remember it would have had to move some distance straight ahead (requirements of a legal charge move) and then wheeled 90 into contact.

I agree 100% that the section on how to handle BGs already in contact but not yet fighting gives all the possible ways to resolve the issue and charging is not one of them. However, I guess that is in the manuever section and charges are all defined ahead of that, so this might be intended as what to do if you are still in that position after all charges have been made.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:51 pm

** Warning - This post contains non-sense**

I am clearly (I Hope!) playing devil's advocate on the whole - why can't my in melee unit charge if charging BGs I'm already in contact with is legal... but I still can't find it. (I think the world agrees it is not and should not be possible, and I think that reason is you don't charge things you are in contact with... but if that is not the case (as asserted by others in this thread)... I can't find a rule that says this would not be legal).

I can think of many reason to do it, even given the fact that no bases would fight impact. If I am in melee with a unit that has FRAG'd I can 'charge' it and force it to break for being charged while Frag'd and the resulting CTs would happen before other Impact combat that turn possibly changing their outcomes. Also it would allow my 'charger' to move forward immediately instead of having to finish off my opponent in this rounds melee phase. It would change unit positions before pending evades, etc.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:39 pm

imanfasil wrote:** Warning - This post contains non-sense**

I am clearly (I Hope!) playing devil's advocate on the whole - why can't my in melee unit charge if charging BGs I'm already in contact with is legal... but I still can't find it. (I think the world agrees it is not and should not be possible, and I think that reason is you don't charge things you are in contact with... but if that is not the case (as asserted by others in this thread)... I can't find a rule that says this would not be legal).

I can think of many reason to do it, even given the fact that no bases would fight impact. If I am in melee with a unit that has FRAG'd I can 'charge' it and force it to break for being charged while Frag'd and the resulting CTs would happen before other Impact combat that turn possibly changing their outcomes. Also it would allow my 'charger' to move forward immediately instead of having to finish off my opponent in this rounds melee phase. It would change unit positions before pending evades, etc.

Because, you can only legally declare a charge on a BG that you would contact with your normal move distance (about the first paragraph of the impact section). In movement it states that you have no move if you are involved in combat (about the first paragraph of movement).

Therefore, no move = no contact = no charge.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:53 pm

Is this what you mean? Page 70 - you cannot move in the MANEUVER phase if you are in combat or charged in the Impact phase. It doesn't say I can't move in the Impact phase if I am in combat.

(again - apologies for being stupid on this - but I am fishing for an official ruling or concensus that a charge has to be against a BG you are not currently in contact with...)

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:09 pm

imanfasil wrote:Is this what you mean? Page 70 - you cannot move in the MANEUVER phase if you are in combat or charged in the Impact phase. It doesn't say I can't move in the Impact phase if I am in combat.

(again - apologies for being stupid on this - but I am fishing for an official ruling or concensus that a charge has to be against a BG you are not currently in contact with...)

No but it states in the impact phase a "normal move", which in this case is nothing - note this isn't zero mm they don't get a move.

Anyway, this is a battle group that is already in close combat - NOT a BG which is in contact with enemy, which can obviously charge.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:20 pm

It says within its Normal Move Distance. Either its 3 (if HF) or its 0 (if you are right on intent), either way... 0 is sufficient since I am already in contact.

The Charge move part says I must advance straight ahead UP TO my maximum move distance... again I choose to move 0, and end in legal charge contact.

If you don't believe 0 is UP TO 4 or whatever... then I'd like everyone to please mail me UP TO a meeellion dollars/euros/pounds....

I am not trying to argue that a unit in corner to corner contact cannot charge. In fact we all agree that shock troops in that situation have to roll not to charge a target in range. I am arguing that you cannot charge the unit you are ALREADY in contact with...

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:37 pm

imanfasil wrote:It says within its Normal Move Distance. Either its 3 (if HF) or its 0 (if you are right on intent), either way... 0 is sufficient since I am already in contact.

The Charge move part says I must advance straight ahead UP TO my maximum move distance... again I choose to move 0, and end in legal charge contact.

If you don't believe 0 is UP TO 4 or whatever... then I'd like everyone to please mail me UP TO a meeellion dollars/euros/pounds....

I am not trying to argue that a unit in corner to corner contact cannot charge. In fact we all agree that shock troops in that situation have to roll not to charge a target in range. I am arguing that you cannot charge the unit you are ALREADY in contact with...

Then you need to try harder.

No move means no move. Not a move of zero, but no move. Did i mention that a unit in combat doesn't get a move?

No move means no move.

Understand?

As far as not being able to charge a unit you are in corner to corner contact, i thibk most people believe you are wrong and that you can.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:53 pm

You need to consult the rules again... no where does it say (that I have found or anyone else has mentioned) that they are not allowed to move in the impact phase.

Normal move isn't used in the impact phase section - Normal Move Distance is... which is used in the interpenetration section (and answers to rules Qs here to mean the base move distance not including VMD) it has nothing to do with move eligibility.

The best you've got as far as I can see (for why I can't charge 0 - also works againt you on charging units already in contact) is this: The top of page 52:

Impact phase is divided into 4 stages, stage 3 - MOVE chargers into contact. Something niether of us can do since we both are already in contact... AND... stage 4 -resolve combats for BGs that have come into contact... again something neither of us are doing.

If you still remain unconvinced... I hope you at least caught the rules citation that says a base that was already in contact cannot fight impact which would limit the amount of dice rolled when you made one of these kind of charges.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:54 am

Scenario A
Impact Phase
There remains uncertainty as to whether or not red can declare a charge. Some say it can because it simply wheels in place through 90 degrees to contact blue's rear corner with its front right corner. Others suggest that a charge must include a forward advance as well as a wheel and therefore red would "miss" blue; accordingly, this prevents red from declaring a charge on blue.
Manoeuvre Phase
Red can do a 90 degree turn (page 77) to contact blue's side edge with its front edge and fight close combat in the Melee Phase. If entitled to, blue may make an evade move in the Manoeuvre Phase.

Scenario B
Impact Phase
Red can declare a charge on blue. Red must first move forward and then wheel. Red's front right corner will contact blue's side edge. Although starting behind blue's flank, this does not COUNT as a flank charge (as red has wheeled when within 1 MU of blue). Impact will be fought as a frontal charge.
Manoeuvre Phase
If red declared and made a charge in the Impact Phase, it will be picked up and placed front edge to front edge with blue with close combat fought in the Melee Phase.
Alternatively
Red can do a 90 degree turn (page 77) to contact blue's side edge with its front edge and fight close combat in the Melee Phase. If entitled to, blue may make an evade move in the Manoeuvre Phase.

Scenario C
Impact Phase
Red can declare a charge on blue. Red must first move forward and then wheel. Red's front right corner will contact blue's side edge. Impact will be fought as a frontal charge.
Manoeuvre Phase
Red will be picked up and placed front edge to front edge with blue with close combat fought in the Melee Phase.
Alternatively
If red did not declare a charge in the Impact Phase, it can take advantage of page 76 and simply move sideways into front edge to front edge contact. Close combat will be fought in the Melee Phase.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:07 am

Scenario A
Impact Phase
Nik says red can NOT declare a charge on blue, because red must move forward BEFORE it wheels. Thus red's front right corner would NOT contact blue's side edge.
Manoeuvre Phase
There is no move red is entitled to make that would result in close combat in the Melee Phase. Red will have to turn 90degrees (with a view to charging in its next turn), move away from blue or stay put.

Red can make a 90 turn in the manoeuver phase, blue could evade immediately if of a type allowed to do so and they would fight in melee if not.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:09 am

There is for sure one mistake in that...

Scenario A) in the manuever phase red can turn 90 degrees and enter melee. (this is the side edge to side edge part of the same rule as the corner to corner one we are debating - BGs already in contact but not engaged in close combat) pp 76-77

You mentioned Nik at some point... are these O-fficial rulings? Would the file of red that is already in contact with blue get to fight in impact?

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:20 am

philqw78 wrote:Red can make a 90 turn in the manoeuver phase, blue could evade immediately if of a type allowed to do so and they would fight in melee if not.

You learn something new every day! I've never noticed that rule (bottom of page76) before either.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:33 am

imanfasil wrote:You mentioned Nik at some point... are these O-fficial rulings? Would the file of red that is already in contact with blue get to fight in impact?

No, it was me erroneously extrapolating from Nik saying red would end in corner to corner contact with blue. Ignore that!

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:45 am

imanfasil wrote:** Warning - This post contains non-sense**

I am clearly (I Hope!) playing devil's advocate on the whole - why can't my in melee unit charge if charging BGs I'm already in contact with is legal... but I still can't find it.

You can only charge if you can make legal charge contact. Legal charge contact is if a base contacts the enemy. If you are already fighting, your bases are in contact with the enemy, but no base contacts the enemy. i.e. no base goes from not touching to touching.

The authors comment on this will no doubt be:

"You can't charge if already fighting. Overlaps can't charge in to people they overlap; use the specific mechanisms in the rules if you want to fight them. If we triied to make the rules completely watertight they'd be twice as thick, cost twice as much and be four times more difficult for new players. In games with friends, if you can't work it out do what seems reasonable. In competitions, ask an umpire."

There might be a swear word or two.

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:13 am

The rules on page 53 do not say a BG has to move forward to wheel to make a charge.

The rules state that there are two ways a BG can make a charge:

1. Advance directly ahead, up to the full extent of its charge move ...

2. Combine such an advance with a single wheel, made at any stage during the charge move...

So in B and C, the red BG can wheel in place as a charge and contact the side edge of the blue BG counting as a frontal charge as the charge starts at less than 1 MU.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:51 am

berthier wrote:The rules on page 53 do not say a BG has to move forward to wheel to make a charge.

The rules state that there are two ways a BG can make a charge:

1. Advance directly ahead, up to the full extent of its charge move ...

2. Combine such an advance with a single wheel, made at any stage during the charge move...

So in B and C, the red BG can wheel in place as a charge and contact the side edge of the blue BG counting as a frontal charge as the charge starts at less than 1 MU.

Based on your above summary of the rules, a charge must therefore meet one of the following:
1. an advance directly ahead, or
2. an advance directly ahead plus a wheel, or
3. a wheel plus an advance directly ahead

A wheel in place (i.e. pivoting on the spot through 90 degrees to end up square onto the target BG) would not appear to meet the requirements of a charge as no advance directly ahead has been made.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:32 pm

That gets into my idiocy of a 0mm advance being up to a full advance straight ahead.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:35 pm

grahambriggs wrote:
imanfasil wrote:** Warning - This post contains non-sense**

I am clearly (I Hope!) playing devil's advocate on the whole - why can't my in melee unit charge if charging BGs I'm already in contact with is legal... but I still can't find it.
The authors comment on this will no doubt be:

"You can't charge if already fighting. Overlaps can't charge in to people they overlap; use the specific mechanisms in the rules if you want to fight them. If we triied to make the rules completely watertight they'd be twice as thick, cost twice as much and be four times more difficult for new players. In games with friends, if you can't work it out do what seems reasonable. In competitions, ask an umpire."

There might be a swear word or two.

Graham- I was fishing for exactly that response from an author (up to a lot of swearing included) just to put a stake in the heart of this issue since I seem to be arguing exactly what you have said mostly alone.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:37 am

philqw78 caught the error for the most recent Scenario A, units can turn 90 degrees in the manoeuver phase if in side edge contact (page 76).

For completeness there is also an error in Scenario B.

Manoeuvre Phase
Red will be picked up and placed front edge to front edge with blue with close combat fought in the Melee Phase

Again, page 76, units are in side edge contact in Scenario B so A has the option of a 90 degree turn in the manoever phase.

I'm just clearing this up so no one takes the wrong inference. Sorry for being tedious.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:44 am

bbotus wrote:philqw78 caught the error for the most recent Scenario A, units can turn 90 degrees in the manoeuver phase if in side edge contact (page 76).

For completeness there is also an error in Scenario B.

Manoeuvre Phase
Red will be picked up and placed front edge to front edge with blue with close combat fought in the Melee Phase

Again, page 76, units are in side edge contact in Scenario B so A has the option of a 90 degree turn in the manoever phase.

I'm just clearing this up so no one takes the wrong inference. Sorry for being tedious.

BBOTUS That is not correct. They will not be side edge to side edge, they will be corner to side edge and will be moved to the front to clarify that it wasn't a flank combat.

(FWIW, this may or may not be a legal charge becuase the two BGs were in contact already.)