RC3 balance thread

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:09 pm

From the russion tank side if I read it correctly it says:

T-34/85 produced 25.899.

I said 25.000 T-34/85 were produced. So whats up ? I missed 800 tanks ? Oh wow.

You did see the point that I did not count in the 40.000 (or 35.000 T-34 earlier than /85 models) right ? But heck maybe I am not reading the kyrillic well enough

.

I just wanted to show the overall numbers disadvantage which is clearly historically proven by different sources and not debate whether or not a few hundred tanks more or less were produced or in use.

Fact is alone the T-34/85 model was produced in a higher number than the german army TOTAL tank + antitank count was during the entire WWII...and the US M4s have been rolled out at similar production rates. The rest is up to your imagination.

skarczew · Post by **skarczew** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:40 pm

I said 25.000 T-34/85 were produced. So whats up ? I missed 800 tanks ? Oh wow.

You did see the point that I did not count in the 40.000 (or 35.000 T-34 earlier than /85 models) right ? But heck maybe I am not reading the kyrillic well enough .

Ehh...

You compare production from the end of war, with another, from the end of 1946.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:17 pm

Plus Germany produced over 50k tanks plus AT.

Can you please move this discussion to another thread?

It has nothing to do with unit or game balance.

skarczew · Post by **skarczew** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:39 pm

Razz1 wrote:It has nothing to do with unit or game balance.

Well it has a little ...units stats should somehow reflect the history and not be just a pure fantasy

.

But you are right about the spam, I will reduce it now

.

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:52 am

skarczew wrote:
Razz1 wrote:It has nothing to do with unit or game balance.
Well it has a little ...units stats should somehow reflect the history and not be just a pure fantasy .

But you are right about the spam, I will reduce it now .

This stands to a certain degree. In multiplaer unit should have counterpart on other side in campaign upgrade path determins much of balance in pure stand alone scenario histor can be best recreated and deploment of units controled. Such scenario doesn't need to be balanced in classical wa but represent situation in reallit in recreating certain battle or operation. Campaign requirement for upgrade path is the reason wh late war fighters don't fit in direct one on one comparition. In reallit there was a reason to have more than one tpe in coexsistance with other tpes but how to do it with game stats is question of gampla limitations not of histor.

In Bf109F and Bf109G comparition opinions are devided. Some speak F is not worth upgrading some speak G is not necesar after F.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:55 am

Can we try and avoid getting too caught up in any specific discussion on a units stats. What is far more important is the overall feel. Does it feel right now or are there still major issues?

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:56 pm

Update on TD cost.

Panzerjager IB----210

Marder IIA----262

Marder IID----269

Marder IIIH----282

Marder IIIM----288

StuG IIIG----313

StuG IIIF----299

StuG IIIF/8----314

Nashorn----376

Elefant----502

JagdPz IV/48----298

JagdPz IV/70(V)----377

Hetzer----295

Jagdtiger----506

Achilles----340

Archer----321

M10 Wolverine----307

M18 Hellcat----315

M36 Jackson----364

SU-85----359

SU-100----445

SU-152----350

ISU-122----443

L 40 da 47/32----198

M41M da 90/53----316

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:40 pm

Micromanagement update:

-SU-122 and SU-152 have fixed HA when in switched mode

-reduced AD for KV-1B and KV-1C

-reduced AD for Matilda I

-Panzer IVJ AD +1

-Panther D and Panther A GD/AD 18/15

-Panther G GD/AD 19/16

-Jagdpanther GD/AD 19/16

-M4A3E2 and M4A3E2(76) GD 20

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:51 pm

uran21 wrote:Update on TD cost.

Panzerjager IB----210

Elefant----502

Jagdtiger----506

Panzerjager feels a bit high at 200. This may not be a problem once other price changes take effect though, so I reserve judgment until then.

As for Elephant and Jagdtiger, I do not agree. Why is the elephant so amazing, and the jagtiger such crap in this game?

Elephant available much sooner (Kursk and onward), more ammo, more hard attack, cheaper (and still cheaper with your new price), more fuel, same speed.
Jagdtiger isn't available until very late, only has 2 better SA (which is still very lousy using any assault gun on a soft target is a terrible idea but thats fine) 2 more initiative, but at this high amount that is meaningless(most allied units have init 10) and only 1 more ground defense.

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:18 pm

Initiative is very important for ant tank because of penalty on attack so I would not call this initiative wasted. If compared in combat against Elefant or Tiger II you get same losses for both sides so I would not call it a crap either. It yust has differently distributed combat stats. Anyway plan is to tone down Elefant because it afects upgrad path how it is now.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Initiative isn't that important when your armor is that thick, and German initiative completely outclasses allied initiatives.

Besides, most Allied tanks have init 10 (Firefly, t34/85) their TDs have init 10 or 11(Achilles, m36) and their uber tanks have init 11 or 12 (m26 and is2)

The penalty for attacking a tank with a TD is minus 3.

So an elephant on the offensive should fire first against everything, except the IS-2. The M26 at 11 is a tie, but the Allied TDs do not get this -3 modifier, so the elephant still fires first.

Heh, elephant still got to fire first, and didn't do so bad for being on the offensive and attacking from a river tile.

So yes, I agree with toning down the elephant here.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:35 am

We missed the cost on Jagdpanther.

I see we changed the GD/GD but no new cost is listed. RC3 cost - 706 !

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:43 am

With the massive increase in prices in all units..... didn't we leave the capture of flags and primary objectives in the dust?

Flag = 50 Prestige
Primary = 100 Prestige

Now we have to capture 4 Primary's to buy a tank or 8 flags.

That seems excessive...

Perhaps we need to increase the rewards. 75 for Flag and 150 for Primary.

EDIT: for those who wish to pursue the Bf-109G debate... check here!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1124570/Mes ... itt_Me_109

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:33 pm

Razz1 wrote:With the massive increase in prices in all units..... didn't we leave the capture of flags and primary objectives in the dust?

Flag = 50 Prestige
Primary = 100 Prestige

Now we have to capture 4 Primary's to buy a tank or 8 flags.

That seems excessive...

Perhaps we need to increase the rewards. 75 for Flag and 150 for Primary.

That or even increasing the reward of wining a scenario. But I suppose that would only work for campaign.
What about rewarding for each unit kill? Probably this was already discussed.
I'm too finding hard to buy new units, specially armour/tanks.

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Update on infantry cost. It afects more late war infanty. I would make early infantry available for purchace in late war too.

Wehrmacht Inf----127

Grenadier----167

Fallschirmjäger----140

Gebirgsjäger----127

Pioniere----193

Brückenpioniere----113

Kavallerie----135

43 Wehrmacht Inf----187

43 Grenadier----227

43 Fallschirmjäger----167

43 Gebirgsjäger----153

Pioniere 43----233

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:11 pm

Micromanagement update:

-Elefant GD/AD 22/19

-SU-152 In 11, HA 16, GD/AD 19/15 +changes in switching mode

-SU-85 In 11, HA 17, GD/AD 18/14

-T-34-85 In 11, HA 17, GD/AD 14/11

-M4A3E2(76) available from March 1945

-Wurfrahmen SA 15

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:26 pm

This is what I was thinking for artillery.

Those that have SA 8 would get -1.

Those that have SA 11 would get -2.

Those that have SA 15 and above would get -3.

Rocket artillery may be exception to this rule.

If this applied prediction to kill would be like this:

75mm 11% chance to kill.

105mm 14% chance to kill.

150mm 19% chance to kill.

170mm 21% chance to kill.

210mm 27% chance to kill.

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:36 pm

After trying to at least survive some turns in Bagration Scenario I have to say the Axis are probably "underpowered" - both from a realistic/historic point as well as from a play balance pov.

I have to agree with a previous poster that this scenario should be adjusted a little.

I think the major problems is the extremely high amount of super high quality soviet tanks like IS-2. I checked there are 9 IS-2 !s at start. But only 3 T34/85 + 1 T34/43. And thats not even remotely taking into account the other good russian ATs.

It should be at least the other way round....T34s were built in a 10:1 ratio compared to IS-2s.

On the axis side is:
1 Panther + 1 Jagdpanther. The rest are poor Stug IIIs and mediocre Pz IVs which get instant slaughtered in the first allied turn by the overwhelming 9 IS-2 which are even tougher than the single Panther as they are now.

Prestige ways the 2000 prestige of Axis is also very low...you could buy 2 Tiger II which still get overrun by the huge amount of IS-2 is no time - not to mention the other units.

So, overall I find the scenario quite good actually. The fact the russians are having a 2:1 numerical advantages is realistic and good. Just tone down the equipment level.

Make 10 or 12 T34s and 1-2 IS-2 instead. Makes up the same amount of tanks and is much more historical as well. Perhaps add more russian infantry as well.

On the german side adding either a little more prestige for the AI/player to adjust its forces. Or some more higher quality tank units (or much more weak defense units like 75mm Pak, 88m PAK, heavy infantry etc.).
I find the completely lack of tracked artillery on the axis side also quite ahistorical so there should be +1 Hummel/Wespe /something in any case.

IMO. Adding another Pz IV/Stug/JPz + 1 Jagdtiger/Elefant or King Tiger could also be considered.

skarczew · Post by **skarczew** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:53 pm

Iscaran wrote:It should be at least the other way round....T34s were built in a 10:1 ratio compared to IS-2s.
(...)
Make 10 or 12 T34s and 1-2 IS-2 instead. Makes up the same amount of tanks and is much more historical as well. Perhaps add more russian infantry as well.

On the german side adding either a little more prestige for the AI/player to adjust its forces. Or some more higher quality tank units (or much more weak defense units like 75mm Pak, 88m PAK, heavy infantry etc.).
I find the completely lack of tracked artillery on the axis side also quite ahistorical so there should be +1 Hummel/Wespe /something in any case.

IMO. Adding another Pz IV/Stug/JPz + 1 Jagdtiger/Elefant or King Tiger could also be considered.

I agree - there is no place for such high amount of IS-2. T-34 should be always regarded as a workhorse (even if it was not anything special at this point of war) and the numbers should reflect it.

I guess adding more cheap AT units for German side won't hurt either.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:55 pm

I have won Bagration pretty easily in Campaign. The scenario is real hard.

Not played in RC3 yet in Campaign. Not sure if they changed the map in RC3.