the resounding dullness of the 800 point game.

[philqw78]

remind me to play you whenever i get the chance. you seem to want to give up pretty easily.

Well whats the point in playing 3 and a half hours for, at best, a draw, when you could give up now and get more points.

[paulcummins]

no, I just dont want to play in a tournament that encourages giving up

I want to fight to the bitter end, and if things go wrong slavaging a draw is a good thing.

Ive had games where I have managed to pull off a draw and it has felt like victory, staged amazing comebacks from the brink of disaster and managed to hold on for the draw.

these are great games, and I wouldnt want to see them penalised

[OldenTired]

no, I just dont want to play in a tournament that encourages giving up

I want to fight to the bitter end, and if things go wrong slavaging a draw is a good thing.

Ive had games where I have managed to pull off a draw and it has felt like victory, staged amazing comebacks from the brink of disaster and managed to hold on for the draw.

these are great games, and I wouldnt want to see them penalised

i genuinely think that is admirable. but there is a pattern forming here in NZL where top players will avoid battle in order to secure a draw. and i've read in this very forum players from other countries stating that they'll take a draw rather than put up with the hassle of trudging through a match versus LH.

while 3-1-0 might not be answer, the points system needs to heavily incentivise wins

[philqw78]

i genuinely think that is admirable. but there is a pattern forming here in NZL where top players will avoid battle in order to secure a draw.

How do they stay top players if they want to draw?

and i've read in this very forum players from other countries stating that they'll take a draw rather than put up with the hassle of trudging through a match versus LH.

Why don't they try some different tactics

while 3-1-0 might not be answer, the points system needs to heavily incentivise wins

5 points already makes a big difference. But 10 would make a bigger one. But you would need to be careful due to the number of rounds. In a 4 round comp if the leading player has 3 wins and the 2nd place player doesn't the top table game will be a draw. Unless the leader was just lucky in his first games and plays like an idiot in his last.

[OldenTired]

[quote="philqw78]5 points already makes a big difference. But 10 would make a bigger one. But you would need to be careful due to the number of rounds. In a 4 round comp if the leading player has 3 wins and the 2nd place player doesn't the top table game will be a draw. Unless the leader was just lucky in his first games and plays like an idiot in his last.[/quote]

maybe over six games. but in 4 games you can easily have someone at the top table who wins 1st by turning the final game into a draw.

[SDnz]

I would not agree with OldenTired that there is any pattern in New Zealand that people are trying to play for Draws. The results would not suggest that. If you go back over the competitons in the last year they have all had more than half the games fought to conclusion. The top four in last weekends competition all had 3 out of 4 games to a conclusion. First and second had a draw against each other with 17 APs lost on one side and 12 APs on the other.

[fatismo]

Interestinly enough all my tournement draws have either been:

1. Very bloody affairs with one or the other player(or both) almost breaking. (about 25%)
2. Against Pike pushing out from a corner (about 75%)

LH/Impact army vs Pike is just a tough ask, I don't like draws, draws don't get you a decent placing at a tourney.

[DavidT]

In the local competition circuit in Ireland for DBM, as we didn't like the 10-0 DBM or the 32-0 BHGS scoring system (which we believed encouraged people to play not to lose rather than playing to win), we used our own system which encouraged aggressive play (as we were Irish after all) and meant that, if you wanted to win a competition, you had to win games. All games were scored using the 10-0 system, then the winner got a bonus of +100 points if he broke the opponents army. Draws were very rare in our competitions.

[sadista]

Oldentired, you seem to be a person more interested in historical matchups rather than open competition.
Competition players make armies that are designed to be competitive.
No changes to the way the game is scored is going to amend this.

[OldenTired]

Oldentired, you seem to be a person more interested in historical matchups rather than open competition.
Competition players make armies that are designed to be competitive.
No changes to the way the game is scored is going to amend this.

am right there with you - hence the title of this thread. i'm out of competition play because it is teeedious.

so i'm painting up some 28mm. this will allow me to sit about the club and have games, pushing around some pretty toys, and drinking coffee.

[fatismo]

Shouldn't that read "i'm out of competition play because I find it is teeedious."

Good luck on the 28mm painting, am sure they will look great if you 15mm army was anything to go by. Especially liked the centures (is that how u spell it, the half horse half man guys anyway)

[OldenTired]

Shouldn't that read "i'm out of competition play because I find it is teeedious."

Good luck on the 28mm painting, am sure they will look great if you 15mm army was anything to go by. Especially liked the centures (is that how u spell it, the half horse half man guys anyway)

i wasn't the only local who has withdrawn from 800 pointers after the last weekend.

that said, thanks. we'll likely be running some 650 point, 5x3 table comps in the near future. i'm sure you know you're already welcome to attend.

[fatismo]

Really, who else hase bailed on the 800 pt format?

And yep, let us know about any tourneys comming up. Table size, army points, scoring system, who cares, the nett result is getting to play FoG and thats always good.

[OldenTired]

i'd better let him speak for himself.

i'm organising valleycon FOG, so you can guarantee it'll be the way i like it.

[lawrenceg]

I still don't get the 800/900 point games with four hour time limits, but I do realize this seems to be sizes most prefer.

What if the scoring was different (for example):

Win: 3 points
Lose: 1 point
Draw: 0 points

If niether side can capture a win with broken BG's; then neither side gets any points. There would be incentive to play for a win (or a loss for that matter) rather than settle for a tie. Of course the scoring could be something other than 3-1-0. But you get the idea. Do not reward unfinished draws of any kind.

Mike B

i'd support something like this, because it actively penalises draws.

if you get no points for a draw, then why take an army with little to no punch? answer - you don't.

Take an army with no punch.

If the opponent goes for you in a risky way, ride around him and win.
If he doesn't, suggest he take the 1 point for a loss as that would be better than a draw, both in points and to avoid the stigma.

If you are good at "draw chicken" you've won the tournament.

[grahambriggs]

but... that's not how historical battles are fought. alexander didn't get to gaugamela and say, "bugger... a lot of mounted there... better sit about for three days until they piss off".

Alexander didn't - but plenty of other Generals did. Perhaps that is reflected by the tabletop generals?

If you have a plan then it is possible to mash LH armies. Nobody is saying it is easy but it is possible. If you choose to sit and moan about Light Horse for 4 hours during a game then you are hardly going to win are you?

Actually Alexander used the "play for a dull draw" tactic when it suited - I seem to recall he did this for days on end against Porus with a transverse river until such time as the Indians felt nothing would happen and then crossed upstream.

[richnz]

And yep, let us know about any tourneys comming up. Table size, army points, scoring system, who cares, the nett result is getting to play FoG and thats always good.

I agree, the more variety the better. I love playing FoG but the 800 point open comp does have a certain samey-ness. But if we mix in some starter armies, some themes and maybe even some large-scale doubles, then things get interesting.

Just like in DBM where I really enjoyed 25mm from time to time, as it was quite a different game, requiring different armies and tactics

[ValentinianVictor]

The 3-1-0 system works quite well as long as its stated that 3 points for an outright win is better than drawing 3 games for an equal number of points. So, in a 6 game comp, players winning two games will always place higher than those drawing all 6 games. Certainly encourages aggressive play.

[OldenTired]

Actually Alexander used the "play for a dull draw" tactic when it suited - I seem to recall he did this for days on end against Porus with a transverse river until such time as the Indians felt nothing would happen and then crossed upstream.

accepted, but that's the strategic deployment that this game does not include.

we're only playing the bit where the armies actually face off, just outside shooting distance.

[Scrumpy]

Alexander & co only had the Gods & Fates to deal with, they must have been easier to cope with than Nik, JD, RBS & co.