SnuggleBunny's FoGII, Pike n Shot, Sengoku MP Channel

[kronenblatt]

Indeed, Ludendorf wrecked me with unit selection in our Classical match - I spent far too many points on expensive high quality Heavy Foot I think. In my last couple Biblical matches, I made the somewhat radical choice to eschew skirmishers almost entirely, in favor of pouring points into mobs of Light Spear/Swordsmen type infantry. It failed against Cunningcairn, who set up on a nice hill and on the low ground kept a strong crust of hoplites (the Hebrew army's bane) around his Massed Archers. It succeeded against dkalenda, if a game where I trail by 20 points for awhile and finally win a "glorious" victory with 55% of my army fleeing counts as success.

What are the links to these three battles vs Ludendorf, and dkalenda, respectively?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Vs Ludendorf: https://youtu.be/6eLWWSxFm-o
Vs Cunningcairn: https://youtu.be/Svf5E7KH6lo
Vs dkalenda: https://youtu.be/Lf2-l6aTB7M

[kronenblatt]

Vs Ludendorf: https://youtu.be/6eLWWSxFm-o
Vs Cunningcairn: https://youtu.be/Svf5E7KH6lo
Vs dkalenda: https://youtu.be/Lf2-l6aTB7M

Thanks, SnuggleBunnies! Which one is the most "educational" for a newbie, in your view?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Ludendorf is the best player out of the three, and I make some pretty severe mistakes. The first 5-10ish minutes of each match tends to be army selection and deployment. The last 3 minutes-ish of every match is a post game analysis.

Really though, every matchup is different. Mike's Beginner's Guide series is probably better for being an overall intro to MP thought, with my matches as examples with commentary.

[MikeC_81]

Vs Ludendorf: https://youtu.be/6eLWWSxFm-o
Vs Cunningcairn: https://youtu.be/Svf5E7KH6lo
Vs dkalenda: https://youtu.be/Lf2-l6aTB7M

Thanks, SnuggleBunnies! Which one is the most "educational" for a newbie, in your view?

You should really study Ludendorf's games in the AAR thread closely if you want to get good. He was the strongest player I have played against.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Yes. If you want to see the masters in action, watch Ludendorfs channel, or watch my matches against the three players that still almost always beat me - Ludendorf, Nosy_Rat, and pantherboy.

[kronenblatt]

Yes. If you want to see the masters in action, watch Ludendorfs channel, or watch my matches against the three players that still almost always beat me - Ludendorf, Nosy_Rat, and pantherboy.

Vs Ludendorf: https://youtu.be/6eLWWSxFm-o
Vs Cunningcairn: https://youtu.be/Svf5E7KH6lo
Vs dkalenda: https://youtu.be/Lf2-l6aTB7M

Thanks, SnuggleBunnies! Which one is the most "educational" for a newbie, in your view?

You should really study Ludendorf's games in the AAR thread closely if you want to get good. He was the strongest player I have played against.

From what I see, I think you're all pretty good. I enjoy and learn a lot from listening to the way you guys are reasoning and watching the way you play out your moves; in which order, etc. But sure, just watched Ludendorf play the Epic Battle of Nineveh versus Deity AI on YouTube, and those thoughts of his and that idea of splitting up the battle in two was... wow!

[nyczar]

From what I see, I think you're all pretty good. I enjoy and learn a lot from listening to the way you guys are reasoning and watching the way you play out your moves; in which order, etc. But sure, just watched Ludendorf play the Epic Battle of Nineveh versus Deity AI on YouTube, and those thoughts of his and that idea of splitting up the battle in two was... wow!

Could you share the link to the Ludendorf epic battle please?

[kronenblatt]

From what I see, I think you're all pretty good. I enjoy and learn a lot from listening to the way you guys are reasoning and watching the way you play out your moves; in which order, etc. But sure, just watched Ludendorf play the Epic Battle of Nineveh versus Deity AI on YouTube, and those thoughts of his and that idea of splitting up the battle in two was... wow!

Could you share the link to the Ludendorf epic battle please?

Absolutely, here we go:

https://youtu.be/3qt-j5EDmMA

[pompeytheflatulent]

Any chance of making a guide for idiots outlining the differences between the priority charge system of pike & shot/sengoku jidai and the zone of control system of field of glory 2?

[Geffalrus]

I would think that a few videos covering the strategies/strengths/weaknesses of the major factions found in some of the Digital League Divisions would be quite fun. Romans, Carthaginians, Hellenistic Successors, and Gauls for Classical Antiquity, for example. The top spots in the Classical always seem to revolve around the interplay between ponderous pike armies, vicious impact foot, and nimble medium foot/light cavalry swarms.

Great job getting this started. The channel is a great idea!

[SnuggleBunnies]

Any chance of making a guide for idiots outlining the differences between the priority charge system of pike & shot/sengoku jidai and the zone of control system of field of glory 2?

Hmm, I haven't yet come to grips with the editor, which would be a requirement for a video of that sort. For now, I can offer my general thoughts here, and try to talk more about it in my matches - though I will point out that the Sengoku Jidai/Pike and Shot manuals put it pretty clearly.

1) No secondary ZoCs. Instead, units exert a ZoC one square diagonally or two squares straight. A unit is also ZoCed by a unit one square to its front that is facing within 45 degrees. This means that the delaying tactic/way to protect Massed Archers in FoG II of just turning units 45 degrees does not work. It also means that a checkerboard formation can't be overcome by focus charging the frontline units.

2) Units in combat still exert ZoC. So you want to be careful about moving to a square that will lock you into an enemy unit in melee.

3) Combats are resolved automatically in between turns. In FoG II, you can resolve your combats in any order you wish, and then take advantage of the openings. In Pike and Shot/Sengoku Jidai, you make your moves first, and hope the combat results work out.

4) Pursuit. Since all units have some chance to pursue, you can't plan as much on ZoC locking an enemy unit that defeats one of your units.

5) Opportunity Fire. A unit caught by enemy opportunity fire will stop moving. This can halt their movement when angled in such a way as to zoc lock them. So sometimes you will want to try to draw the enemy's fire by moving some lights around or firing; keep in mind, however, that the higher the unit's quality, the better a volley it will wait for to fire.

6) Pike keils. These ignore all ZoCs except those of enemy units directly to their front, and I believe those of other pike keils.

One thing that is the same as in FoG II - a unit cannot turn away from its Priority Charge Target except to reduce flank threat.

So the Pike and Shot system in one sense leads to greater predictability - getting locked in two squares away - but also greater unpredictability - automatic melee resolution, pursuits, and opportunity fire. I don't prefer one over the other, both are enjoyable.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I would think that a few videos covering the strategies/strengths/weaknesses of the major factions found in some of the Digital League Divisions would be quite fun. Romans, Carthaginians, Hellenistic Successors, and Gauls for Classical Antiquity, for example. The top spots in the Classical always seem to revolve around the interplay between ponderous pike armies, vicious impact foot, and nimble medium foot/light cavalry swarms.

Great job getting this started. The channel is a great idea!

Ludendorf is doing just that on his channel, see this thread -

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 3&t=100170

I'm not sure if I will consciously work on such a project - I try to keep my games usually limited to around 16 for all three games combined, and I will soon be playing in Karvon's Chaos Tourney and Little Wars Tourney. When I do play random pickup matches, I rather like playing mirror matches of oddball armies that don't see much League play. Still, I have recorded all 36 games from Season 8 of the League. I know that Classical Antiquity is your main interest. Classical playlist here -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... X8Y0qJLCxx

I had Roman 199-106 BC with Greek 227-146 BC allies
vs
Cunningcairn - Thracian (Hellenistic) 350-281 BC with Antigonid 320-301 BC allies
dkalenda - Pontic 110-85 BC
harveylh - Ptolemaic 55-30 BC with Roman 105-25 BC allies
herm - Seleucid 302-301 with Lysimachid 320-281 BC allies
Ludendorf - Carthaginian, Hannibal in Africa 202 BC
Morbio - Roman 105-25 BC with Numidian/Moorish 55 BC-6 AD allies
Nosy_Rat - Indian 500 BC-319 AD
Schweetness101 – Carthaginian, Hannibal in Italy 216-203 BC with Samnite 355-272 BC allies
Triarii - Jewish (64BC-6AD) with Roman (105BC-25BC) allies

So many of the types you mentioned are represented here, and I do talk about the armies strengths and weaknesses throughout, particularly at force selection and postgame. I played indifferently this season, going 6-3 in Biblical and Classical, 6-1-2 in Late Antiquity, and a horrendous 2-3-4 in Early Middle Ages! Ouch.

[Athos1660]

1) No secondary ZoCs. Instead, units exert a ZoC one square diagonally or two squares straight. A unit is also ZoCed by a unit one square to its front that is facing within 45 degrees. This means that the delaying tactic/way to protect Massed Archers in FoG II of just turning units 45 degrees does not work. It also means that a checkerboard formation can't be overcome by focus charging the frontline units.
(...)
One thing that is the same as in FoG II - a unit cannot turn away from its Priority Charge Target except to reduce flank threat.
(...)

Can we say that, in P&S :

• ZoC is about not being able to move, ie pass through a square or move forward when already ZoCed. It would be the equivalent for ZoC1 in FoG2,

• Priority Charge is about not being able to turn (away) ?

... and that, in P&S, units :

• exert a ZoC"1" one square diagonally or straight

• have "priority charge target(s) – these are (a) enemy within two map squares directly to their front (one square if the chargers are facing diagonally) and facing within 45 degrees of directly towards them, or (b) enemy ZOCing them."

And btw in FoG2, units still can't turn (away) when an enemy ZOC1 them, as if the latter were their "priority charge target" (even if the expression is not used anymore in FoG2) :



Is it correct ?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Quite right, different terminology, same concept

[pompeytheflatulent]

So in pike & shot if I had a unit stuck facing an enemy diagonally, but these two units can't charge each other due to two other units locked in melee diagonally across their front, will that priority charge thingy clear up the next turn or are they stuck there until the other melee resolves?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Hmm. If I'm understanding you correctly, the two diagonal facing units would be facing each other across an ongoing melee? I don't know if the game code will 'cancel out' the ZoC lock if it is actually crossing a melee; I think it does. But to be honest I can't remember ever having run into that situation (maybe because it does cancel the zoc), and I have been playing the game since 2015 now. I suppose Athos might be able to puzzle it out from the code, but in any case it's such an edge case that I'm not sure if it's really something worth worrying about.

I'll keep an eye out for it though, and let you know/point it out in a recording when I do come across it.

[Athos1660]

So in pike & shot if I had a unit stuck facing an enemy diagonally, but these two units can't charge each other due to two other units locked in melee diagonally across their front, will that priority charge thingy clear up the next turn or are they stuck there until the other melee resolves?

Do you mean this ?



If so, they are :

(...) stuck there until the other melee resolves

... or until an enemy unit comes and flank/rear charges them. Think of the P&S flank/rear charge rules that applies to unengaged units too. These units are really in a bad position.

... or until they decide to fall back (with a CT).

As Snugglebunnies said, it is an edge case.
Who would end up (and stay for long) in such a situation ? Both players have to do it almost on purpose

I agree with him :

(...) to be honest I can't remember ever having run into that situation

(edit)
This is all more rare because of the pursuit rules in P&S : foot (always) pursue. The situation above could happen more often in FoG2 where foot don't pursue (except in some rare cases) if FoG2 had the P&S priority target mechanism :

[pompeytheflatulent]

So in pike & shot if I had a unit stuck facing an enemy diagonally, but these two units can't charge each other due to two other units locked in melee diagonally across their front, will that priority charge thingy clear up the next turn or are they stuck there until the other melee resolves?

Do you mean this ?

Yep that's it. I was actually playing against the AI, and I think it happened when a pursuing unit charged into melee. It wouldn't even let me do a 45 degree turn away to shoot at something else. I swear trying to understand the all the intricacies and nuances of the priority charge system is like trying to understand some Lovecraftian horror - the more I learn, the closer I get to the edge of madness.

[Athos1660]

I swear trying to understand the all the intricacies and nuances of the priority charge system is like trying to understand some Lovecraftian horror - the more I learn, the closer I get to the edge of madness.

A unit can't turn away from an enemy :

• who is within two map squares directly to its front (one square if the chargers are facing diagonally) and facing within 45 degrees of directly towards them

• or ZOC1ing it, like in FoG2

Note :

So in pike & shot if I had a unit stuck facing an enemy diagonally, but these two units can't charge each other due to two other units locked in melee diagonally across their front, will that priority charge thingy clear up the next turn or are they stuck there until the other melee resolves?

Do you mean this ?



If so, they are :

(...) stuck there until the other melee resolves

... or until an enemy unit comes and flank/rear charges them. Think of the P&S flank/rear charge rules that applies to unengaged units too. These units are really in a bad position.

... or until they decide to fall back (with a CT).

Correction :

If there's a threat of rear/flank charge, the unengaged unit will be able to turn to this threat :


as :

One thing that is the same as in FoG II - a unit cannot turn away from its Priority Charge Target except to reduce flank threat.