Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
Geffalrus
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Geffalrus »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:09 pm One difficulty to allowing the cataphracts to ignore the ZoC of the Bowmen to their right is flank covering. If the Bowmen with their rear facing towards the catas were already engaged in melee, a rear charge would be automatic cohesion drop. This would also be the case for a flank charge; a common way to cover flanks of friendly units is to move another friendly unit up behind, turned at a 45 degree angle to cover the flank of the unit in front. Allowing charging troops to ignore such ZoCs would change all sorts of balance pretty drastically.

How would you overcome this? Let's say you don't want Bowmen to exert ZoC against cavalry, because they would hesitate to charge into melee against such troops. What about Irregular Foot? It's almost as bad an idea for them to charge cataphracts as Bowmen. Should they not exert ZoC either? Should the ability to ignore primary ZoCs if there is another target in front be an ability limited to non light cavalry and elephants? How would that work out in balance terms?

Look, I can see the difficulty you're having with this, but changing these ZoC rules would be anything but simple, and could well lead to less desirable outcomes than we have now.

My suggestion - make a quick mod allowing what you ask, and run some test games. That's what Schweetness is doing with the Pike balance. Start a thread, generate some data, come back with something solid for Richard & co to look at.
I second this. Schweetness is really doing some excellent work and should be an inspiration to others to follow that path.

My only other two cents on this, is that there have been recent discussions about whether cavalry are under powered compared to infantry. Giving heavy cavalry, or Superior cavalry, or lancer cavalry (broad to specific) the ability to ignore some ZOC would be an interesting buff that would certainly make them more useful in some situations. But as Snuggles said, test it out first.
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Athos1660
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Athos1660 »

btw Cataphracts ignoring/crossing the ZoC of Bowmen that are to their right and rotated by 45°(as debated above) would be quite as if they deliberately choose to expose themselves to a flank charge by those bowmen.

And according to the current game mechanics, bowmen charging unengaged Cataphracts' flank win the impact with a Net PoA = +50 and kill 10-30 Cataphracts who run a small risk of a cohesion drop and thus of losing the following melee.

All this seems to me quite historical/logical.

That's certainly a reason why Cataphracts currently don't cross the Rubicon... well I mean the ZoC.
Geffalrus wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:27 pm (...) discussions about whether cavalry are under powered compared to infantry.
That's the question. And I for one don't think, generally speaking, that the in-game cavalry of the Antiquity/early Middle Age is more under powered than RL one was. For example, in-game Cataphracts are doing very well in head-on charges and the following melees against Roman infantry of the same period.

As for a mod with new ZoC rules, it is a great idea.
Maybe waiting for the implementation of later knights is necessary, in terms of balance.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Cunningcairn »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:09 pm One difficulty to allowing the cataphracts to ignore the ZoC of the Bowmen to their right is flank covering. If the Bowmen with their rear facing towards the catas were already engaged in melee, a rear charge would be automatic cohesion drop. This would also be the case for a flank charge; a common way to cover flanks of friendly units is to move another friendly unit up behind, turned at a 45 degree angle to cover the flank of the unit in front. Allowing charging troops to ignore such ZoCs would change all sorts of balance pretty drastically.

How would you overcome this? Let's say you don't want Bowmen to exert ZoC against cavalry, because they would hesitate to charge into melee against such troops. What about Irregular Foot? It's almost as bad an idea for them to charge cataphracts as Bowmen. Should they not exert ZoC either? Should the ability to ignore primary ZoCs if there is another target in front be an ability limited to non light cavalry and elephants? How would that work out in balance terms?

Look, I can see the difficulty you're having with this, but changing these ZoC rules would be anything but simple, and could well lead to less desirable outcomes than we have now.

My suggestion - make a quick mod allowing what you ask, and run some test games. That's what Schweetness is doing with the Pike balance. Start a thread, generate some data, come back with something solid for Richard & co to look at.
This discussion is now completely off topic which is a bit naughty. We are back on ZOC and related issues such as kinked lines. After the last discussion on this subject changes were made to the rules. So you remember when a unit was in more than one ZOC the computer decided when which ZOC was relevant and would be obeyed. This created scenarios where ZOC's would at times be ignored and there were bizarre situations where units would by-pass units ZOCing them. Thankfully that has been corrected but has not overcome the situation with gamey play and by turning face you can prevent a unit directly in front of you from charging. What happens now is that you can immobilize a "superior" unit with a skirmisher and non light unit by placing the skirmisher directly to its front and then primary ZOCing it with a non light unit. A cataphract for example has a Raw spear behind it and a LF in front of it and it is not allowed to charge the LF but has to turn to face the Spear. Why? Please someone please answer the question. Why? Also why should a unit have to charge a unit adjacent to its facing when there is a suitable target right in front of it? Exactly what is trying to be avoided is happening.

On how to overcome it is simple. Let a unit charge directly to it's front irrespective of ZOC's when it is directly in front of an enemy unit with no square between itself and said unit. To get to that point i.e. directly in front of a unit with no square separating it, all current ZOC rules still need to be obeyed.

On how to test this I agree fully that Scweetness has shown us the way. I however cannot do what Scweetness has done. Is there someone else out there that can? Snugglebunnies? Maybe Athos?
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Athos1660 »

Sorry, I don't know how to mod FoG2 rules.
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Cunningcairn wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:19 am
... A cataphract for example has a Raw spear behind it and a LF in front of it and it is not allowed to charge the LF but has to turn to face the Spear. Why? Please someone please answer the question. Why? Also why should a unit have to charge a unit adjacent to its facing when there is a suitable target right in front of it? Exactly what is trying to be avoided is happening.

On how to overcome it is simple. Let a unit charge directly to it's front irrespective of ZOC's when it is directly in front of an enemy unit with no square between itself and said unit. To get to that point i.e. directly in front of a unit with no square separating it, all current ZOC rules still need to be obeyed.

On how to test this I agree fully that Scweetness has shown us the way. I however cannot do what Scweetness has done. Is there someone else out there that can? Snugglebunnies? Maybe Athos?
The cataphracts won't charge directly to their front because to do so is to invite a damaging charge from the rear from the adjacent spearmen. A charge doesn't just happen; a unit has to get ready and then advance. Psychologically, it would be extremely difficult to get ready to charge some unthreatening skirmishers to the front while a mass of spearmen marched towards them from behind. The current ZoC system exists to prevent players from committing their units to obviously suicidal charges in which they would get flank attacked next turn. Not that the commander might be bothered by such a thing, but the soldiers themselves, from their ground's eye view, are unlikely to take kindly to ignoring a greater threat for "the greater good." Furthermore, to allow charges to any unit directly to the front would throw off all kinds of things having to do with attempted flank charges and covering flanks etc. To get the sort of change you're advocating for, a few conditions are necessary -

1) It has to match Richard's vision for the game. I don't think it does, as the whole ZoC system exists to try to impose psychological limits on your units.

2) A majority of the playerbase has to strongly support the change. I don't think this is the case either. The previous change to the ZoC system had vocal support from the vast majority of forum posters (who are an unrepresentative sample to be sure, being more likely to be advanced MP players than the vast majority of the playerbase, which is largely SP according to Slitherine). The change you are advocating here has not attracted such widespread support.

3) You have to have a very specific change in mind for examination. I think in your last post you have finally mostly landed on this - that you should be able to charge any unit directly one square to your front? Or also any units 45 degrees to your front? Regardless of the facing of that unit, and regardless of whether it is a Light unit, even if you have another enemy unit Primary ZoCing you from behind.

If we wanted to, I'm sure that you and I are both perfectly capable of following the detailed instructions in the Modding section of the forum to test out your idea. But I think these changes would not be good, so I have no interest in putting the time and effort into learning how to test it out.
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by pompeytheflatulent »

Anytime I feel like complaining about the ZOC system in this game, I just fire up Pike & Shot or Sengoku Jidai to remind myself how god-awful the previous Priority Charge System was in comparison.
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Cunningcairn »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:09 pm
The cataphracts won't charge directly to their front because to do so is to invite a damaging charge from the rear from the adjacent spearmen. A charge doesn't just happen; a unit has to get ready and then advance. Psychologically, it would be extremely difficult to get ready to charge some unthreatening skirmishers to the front while a mass of spearmen marched towards them from behind. The current ZoC system exists to prevent players from committing their units to obviously suicidal charges in which they would get flank attacked next turn. Not that the commander might be bothered by such a thing, but the soldiers themselves, from their ground's eye view, are unlikely to take kindly to ignoring a greater threat for "the greater good." Furthermore, to allow charges to any unit directly to the front would throw off all kinds of things having to do with attempted flank charges and covering flanks etc. To get the sort of change you're advocating for, a few conditions are necessary -

This is not entirely correct as the situations caused by this "gameyness" often put units in situations in which they are doomed and immobile where a frontal charge would eliminate the danger. Again we are talking complex decision making in situations that are not entirely clear. Can the front troops see the rear threat. Who/what is actually making the decision, the officers or the "mass psychological state" of the unit? Would trained soldiers not understand their predicament and do what they are trained to do and that is fight? Sun Tzu if my memory serves me correctly instructs not to corner your enemy without an avenue of escape as a trapped rat fights harder. Well that certainly can't happen with this rule. Is there a chink in Sun Tzu's philosophy?

1) It has to match Richard's vision for the game. I don't think it does, as the whole ZoC system exists to try to impose psychological limits on your units.

Correct I understand that. Richard what are your thoughts?

2) A majority of the playerbase has to strongly support the change. I don't think this is the case either. The previous change to the ZoC system had vocal support from the vast majority of forum posters (who are an unrepresentative sample to be sure, being more likely to be advanced MP players than the vast majority of the playerbase, which is largely SP according to Slitherine). The change you are advocating here has not attracted such widespread support.

Yes here you are 100% correct in all aspects. Did you know that apparently SP can lead to blindness :lol:

3) You have to have a very specific change in mind for examination. I think in your last post you have finally mostly landed on this - that you should be able to charge any unit directly one square to your front? Or also any units 45 degrees to your front? Regardless of the facing of that unit, and regardless of whether it is a Light unit, even if you have another enemy unit Primary ZoCing you from behind.

Yes definitely the unit to the front. I need to think about units that are adjacent to a unit directly to the front. As the battlefield is a grid of squares I haven't really thought how this will work with opposing lines at 45 degrees to the grid. My initial thinking is that you should be able to decide whether to attack the frontal unit or the adjacent unit if you were in the primary ZOC of the adjacent unit.

If we wanted to, I'm sure that you and I are both perfectly capable of following the detailed instructions in the Modding section of the forum to test out your idea. But I think these changes would not be good, so I have no interest in putting the time and effort into learning how to test it out.
I understand
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Schweetness101 »

Geffalrus wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:27 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:09 pm
Cunningcairn wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:19 am
I would be more than willing to try my hand at a cavalry and/or zone of control mod. Perhaps we can start a Cav Testing and/or Re-balance Workshop thread(s) or some such to discuss first what ought to be done and second how we ought to do?

We could start out discussing:

1) unit specific ZoC locking changes (maybe bowmen and mob don't ZoC lock cavalry?)
2) removing secondary ZoC from infantry that have been charged by cav this turn (idea from snugglebunnies)
3) infantry who have been charged by cav this turn lose 4ap next turn (idea from snugglebunnies) to prevent the cheap inf vs expensive cav ZoC trap.
4+) anything else!

maybe we can follow the pike mod example and someone else makes a cav re-balance workshop first, we discuss history, gameplay, potential changes, some numbers involved etc...for awhile, then I make a cav testing workshop where we discuss how to technically implement a mod and I update the op with links to a download and a change list once it is at that stage
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Mairtin »

Regarding ZOC and who you can charge, a simpler change would be to allow any unit to charge another if the move is less than or equal to the distance to the unit exerting the ZOC. Maybe unless the target is light and the ZOC exerting unit isn't.
Schweetness101
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Re: Your experiences in the Kushan/Indo-Greek match in the Christmas tournament

Post by Schweetness101 »

Schweetness101 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:10 pm
Geffalrus wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:27 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:09 pm
Cunningcairn wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:19 am
I would be more than willing to try my hand at a cavalry and/or zone of control mod. Perhaps we can start a Cav Testing and/or Re-balance Workshop thread(s) or some such to discuss first what ought to be done and second how we ought to do?

We could start out discussing:

1) unit specific ZoC locking changes (maybe bowmen and mob don't ZoC lock cavalry?)
2) removing secondary ZoC from infantry that have been charged by cav this turn (idea from snugglebunnies)
3) infantry who have been charged by cav this turn lose 4ap next turn (idea from snugglebunnies) to prevent the cheap inf vs expensive cav ZoC trap.
4+) anything else!

maybe we can follow the pike mod example and someone else makes a cav re-balance workshop first, we discuss history, gameplay, potential changes, some numbers involved etc...for awhile, then I make a cav testing workshop where we discuss how to technically implement a mod and I update the op with links to a download and a change list once it is at that stage
as per above I've started a new thread and created an initial mod with some cav/zoc changes if anyone wants to try it out and discuss:

viewtopic.php?f=477&t=98647

thanks
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
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