later ottoman turks

[Hepius]

I'd love to see some battle reports from the successful Ottoman tournament armies. I'm curious how many Janissaries are taken and how they are employed.

Hep

[SirGarnet]

Trying the Later Ottomans for the first time, what to do with Janissaries really was the question. The standard shooty cav/light tactics are familiar enough. Having a Serb Knight ally BG fits in with that neatly. But what to do with Janissaries?

So far, first try:
Default organization is a brigade of 2x6 Janissaries plus 4 Iaylars intended for rear support/reserve, with at least one Handgunner BG deployed not far away to look for chances to use the handgunner morale effect.

If deployed in the middle, there are a few field fortifications (leftover points) that the brigade can use to create a problem for attackers in the open. It's a small tribute to the traditional Ottoman fortified center and creates some tactical uncertainty for the enemy.

The brigade normally deploys somewhere near the center to ensure it will see action, unless needed in its entirety or in detachments to deal with terrain on the flanks. Ideal terrain is a rough gentle hill in the center that the enemy will find hard to avoid and offers both a good defensive position and a good perch for shooting, but any terrain that gives an advantage will do.

Since the Janissary BGs generate only 4 dice, if separated from each other then one LF BG in the area should be assigned to support each Janissary BG. The Iaylar normally stays with one of the Janissary units. The working concept is that although the Iaylars could provide rear support for any of the non-Elite horse, they really don't need it while the Janissaries may if beaten in close combat by mounted or HF, and the hope is to use the Iaylars to engage foot opponents.

BATTLE RESULTS (one battle vs. Medieval Germans): The Janissaries deployed centrally near a baseline village with some FF in front but advanced from those to help cover the flank of the mounted wing against knights in the enemy center. One enemy Knight BG, stung by a cohesion loss from Janissary archery, charged home but was swiftly routed (the German IC later quickly rallied and recovered this BG). Not expecting their friends to rout so soon, the other enemy knight BG had already turned towards our mounted wing. Rather than just shoot and wait for the wheeling Serbs to approach and engage these German cavaliers, the cocky victorious Janissaries seized their chance and charged them in the flank. This knocked them down a cohesion level immediately but the flank impact failed to make any further impression. Indeed, these Germans turned and ferociously assailed the Janissaries, who broke despite the brave leadership of their commander.

As the Janissaries routed, the German knights were engaged by more numerous Serbs in an extended fight. While all this was happening, the other Janissary and Iaylar BGs wheeled toward the other flank to face the nearer of the advancing German spearmen and began an extended contest with a slight net advantage in their favor when the Germans conceded the battle due to the collapse of the opposite German wing before the shooting and charges of the Kapakulu and Anatolian Timariot cavalry (Elite and Superior shooty cav).

CONCLUSION:
- The Janissaries were well placed for this battle - they prevented the German knights from effectively intervening on the decisive flank, although to do so they were forced to face Spearmen coming in from the other flank.
- The concentrated shooting of the Janissaries and the LF is effective. Too bad the Janissaries are not armoured for close combat. Stakes would be nice too.
- When getting pounded hard that +1 rear support from the Iaylars can be quite important.
- The 2 6-base BGs work well together. The Iaylars are not a very maneuverable reserve for the brigade, but they are able to get in and tie up an enemy BG. Superior is quite helpful - again, armoured would be better.

Note re Ottomans: Remember to consider possible ++ POAs in advance since throwing a commander in the front rank of Elites becomes pointless at ++ since the ability to reroll 3s idoesn't help when they hit on 3s.

[rbodleyscott]

I came 5th out of 20, but Jason Broomer came 3rd also using Later Ottomans.

In a tournament that allowed any army from Swords and Scimitars, Storm of Arrows or Eternal Empire. So hardly a restricted field. I fought both Pete and Jason with Later Hungarians with 3 BGs of knights and only succeeded in holding them to a slightly losing draw. Out of three BGs of Janissaries fought in the open, my knights beat one and lost against two. (I ended up in 4th position between Jason and Pete).

I would recommend taking the Serbian ally - both the above took a BG of 4 Serbian knights and although I routed them both by fighting them with 2 BGs of knights, they gave me considerable headaches in deployment and manoeuvre.

[SirGarnet]

I would recommend taking the Serbian ally - both the above took a BG of 4 Serbian knights and although I routed them both by fighting them with 2 BGs of knights, they gave me considerable headaches in deployment and manoeuvre.

I took 6 Serbian Knights for a first run, the theory being that 4 on 4 is too risky but 6 of them rerolling as Elites is a safe bet to beat 4 opposing Knights or at least tie up 8 if I can cover their flanks to keep them from being sandbagged. This makes them a heavier weight on the opponent's mind.

However, cutting them to 4 would allow one or two other BGs. Opinions?

Mike

[petedalby]

Funnily enough I'm toying with the idea of dropping my IC to a TC to give me the extra 2 bases of Serbs.

But it's swings and roundabouts. If your 6 get hit by 4, and you lose the impact and drop to Disrupted - you're back to 4 vs 4.

6 does sound quite scary though!

Pete

[madcam2us]

Pete,

My thinking exactly with the TC over the IC.

IMO terrain is not so much important to the Turks and getting additional commanders or extra hy troopers are the way to go.

I'd rather have some decent sized foot but that may be asking too much.

Madcam.

[rbodleyscott]

Funnily enough I'm toying with the idea of dropping my IC to a TC to give me the extra 2 bases of Serbs.

OTOH, if your C-in-C had been a TC my Knights would have disrupted your Janissaries on impact and there would have been a whole different story on that wing.

(Clever me, I managed to get my knights routed despite the fact that they won 3 consecutive rounds of close combat and didn't lose a base. I expanded so that I was unable to break off, resulting in 2 cohesion drops on consecutive turns and then the BG breaking when Pete killed my general on a 12. Pete's Janissaries only passed their first CT by one, despite IC and rear support, so with a TC they would have been toast).

[petedalby]

That's why I'm only toying with the idea! That IC does come in handy!!

Pete

[rbodleyscott]

hi, just got the army lists for ottoman turks and must say that I feel a bit let down by the lists.
The number of bases for the janissaries is low, and even thoe it states in the write up on page 12 that azabs had been recruited in large numbers all you get from the lists are 8 bases in total. something very wrong here. I DO FEEL THAT some of these army lists have taken the true strong points out of each army and also the feel of each nation.
what do you chaps think.
michael

one can get 16 bases of janissaries and further 16 bases of Azab archers.

IMO this is plenty.

My concern is that they SUCK in period as they will be hard pressed to do enough damage vs historical opponents before being ridden down...especially vs knights

See http://www.bhgs.co.uk/doubles/Results/2009/Oxford.htm

Clearly Ottomans are crap and it is time to revive this thread.

[SirGarnet]

Do you happen to know the variations in terms of numbers of Serb allied knights and Janissaries in those lists?

Mike

[rbodleyscott]

Do you happen to know the variations in terms of numbers of Serb allied knights and Janissaries in those lists?

Mike

I only know our own list, which had no Janissary archers and no knights.

It was:

C-in-C TC
SG FC
2 x SG TC

7 x 4 LH Bow Average Akinjis
2 x 4 LH Bow, Sword Average Tatars
1 x 8 LF Bow Poor Azabs
2 x 4 LF Firearm Superior Janissaries
4 x 4 Cv Armoured Bow, Sword Superior Undrilled Timariots
2 x 2 Cv Armoured Bow, Sword Elite Drilled Qapu khalki

The armies we fought were

Lithuanian (Moderate victory)
Later Hungarian (Marginal defeat)
Later Polish (Moderate victory)
Medieval Cypriot (Decisive victory)

All had lots of knights.

[davidandlynda]

Ours had 4 Serbs and 12 Janissaries,we also had 12 Wallachian superior LH,ours was 14 BG so the smallest,Grahams had 1 BG of Janissaries no SERBS nad 19 BG
David

[SirGarnet]

Ours had 4 Serbs and 12 Janissaries,we also had 12 Wallachian superior LH,ours was 14 BG so the smallest,Grahams had 1 BG of Janissaries no SERBS nad 19 BG
David

Thanks. 19 BGs would seem to leave no room for Serbs - I like the threat posed by 6. Did he take any penny packets of Kapakulu? I find those hard to resist.

Mike

[paulcummins]

we faced 3 different ottomans at the weekend (and whooped them all:))

version 1 - 2x 6 janisaries, 1x 6! knights
version 2 - 2 x 8 janisaries, no knights
version 3 - no knights, no janisaries

[rbodleyscott]

Did he take any penny packets of Kapakulu? I find those hard to resist.

We certainly found them very useful.

[paulcummins]

Did he take any penny packets of Kapakulu? I find those hard to resist.



We certainly found them very useful.

I have to say - we considered them targets

[rbodleyscott]

Did he take any penny packets of Kapakulu? I find those hard to resist.



We certainly found them very useful.

I have to say - we considered them targets

Clearly they would be if put at risk.

[madcam2us]

I've been toying with them but don't think they work in smaller groups at 800 points. Curious how you used them.. Support? Threaten flanks? Screening the middle...

the latter is perhaps the safest bet... Two BGs deployed in the middle third with a TC and watch them slow any enemy advance to a crawl. Only benefical if not facing any missile troops and one better do something on the wings...

Care to share your experiences with them RBS>

Madcam.

[SirGarnet]

The important thing is they hit hard for their size and are unlikely to fail CMTs, making them ideal for maneuvering into charge positions and charging through gaps to try to score a Cohesion Loss on enemy between melee rounds. They are nimble sidesteppers against shock troops provoked into an advance or charge by others. If they can get a flank or rear charge in 2 wide, chances are excellent for 3 or 4 hits (since misses on a 1 or 2 are rerolled), and with 2 hits ahead a failed enemy CT takes them from steady to routed in a single Impact. That's the play I'm looking for.

One bad idea was having one out on its own trying to work around a flank with some LH - this was an unconvincing threat since I didn't have the stomach to expose it to much risk from shooting, and they were intimidated when when 4 enemy crossbow cavalry came up. My current doctrine has them start out as rear support for Cav or Serb Knights while awaiting opportunities. I think they could work similarly with the Janissaries but haven't tried that since I had tried Iaylars under a TC in that role.

Also, a pair of 2s counts as 4 attrition points but can usefully fight side by side in a firefight like a 4 and also splits enemy death rolls (as Elites, CTs are not a big deal). However, due to their fragility, I am much more cautious with them than with a 4, so a 4+2 combo may be better than 2+2+2 as an open-enemies list.

Mike

[ottomanmjm]

I think that the Janissary archers are a must for an Ottoman army. At the recent Cancon I ran on BG of 8 and used them agressively - they were often the most advanced unit in the army. The Ottomans are a shooty army and the Janissaries are the best shooters in the army. Being Drilled Medium Superior foot they can perform a complex move nearly all the time, especially if accompanied by an IC. This gives them the ability to get out of the way of anything that may squash them or to make way for support troops (Serbs or Iaylars). I always supported them with handgunners if there were enemy knights about which usually made the knights a bit cautious.
If they do get caught by Heavy foot and lose the chances are they will out run the foot and can be rallied (one reason to run 8 of them).

I now need to buy some more figures so that I can run two BG's of 8 (well that's my excuse anyway)

As for the qapu Khalqi - I ran mine as 4 superiors as their primary role was to shoot. Although they did suffer the ignominy of being routed by two BG's of LH in one battle, failing two cohesion tests and then being charged and beaten by the LH! A BG of 2 Elites could be useful for supporting the Serbs.

Regards
Martin