Blitzkrieg 41-42

[Erik2]

True, I test if the primary and (most of) the secondary objectives work, but have not got the time to play everything through.
So detailed whining is appreciated (just kidding, Andy).

[Andy2012]

It's good you give Erik detailed feedback cause he most probably does not have time to playtest it.
Andy is also a kind of worker cause you take the hit with the raw product so us lazy slobs (actually still doing the DLCs) can benefit from the polished end result when it comes time for us to play this campaign.

To be honest, it was mostly having a flu. Sipping tea, surrounded by hankies filled with snot. (Sorry, disgusting...) Playing OoB lightened my mood. Back to the grind now, will try some playing over the next days. No guarantees.
BTW, I do this campaign also because I find the scenarios more interesting, history-wise. I mean, Morning Sun does not appeal to me that way. Marines the same. Thats why I never bought them.
And betatesting Eriks campaign is an amateur effort. Betatesting other stuff the devs make is a money affair (for them). So I skip it because I dont have the time or nerves to do it consistently. Tried that once with Morning Sun, annoying.

[Andy2012]

True, I test if the primary and (most of) the secondary objectives work, but have not got the time to play everything through.
So detailed whining is appreciated (just kidding, Andy).

Will continue my whining over the next few days, promise. Just have less time now.
Have you figured out the triggers in Metaxas Line, BTW? The mission only works if they are checked every turn. I took everything in Turn 14, but still got a draw something is wrong there.

[Erik2]

Fixed Metaxas here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/168 ... etaxas.zip
I fixed similar triggers for the Soviet scenarios, so recommend to download the campaign again.

Updated campaign link in first post

[Andy2012]

@Erik: Just tried last version of Crete again. Will write more over the next few days, just have played two turns.
Up so far: Game crashed on me again. Dont know why, usually it just does that when there is too much around as in WinterWar. Not sure this is the missions fault.
Also, another thing I noticed in two turns - it depends too much how and if you survive the first counterattack by Greeks, ANZAC, British and so on on your Paras on how you land in those villages. If all your paras are off, you get obliterated. If they drop nicely, you can hold the line. So I caught myself quickloading a lot to ensure they all drop into the villages nicely and dont have to conquer them in the second turn. Because especially west of Maleme, the AI moves the HeavyInf into the villages from the river hex and with arty support, you are then bogged down. Right now, I dont have a cure for this at hand, maybe let some paras start on the ground or give me those villages from the start? Dont know.
Will try more turns, maybe today. If the crash problems persists, I will report. Also, maybe think about the randomness of the start turn when dropping. Dont have a finite opinion on this.

[Andy2012]

@Erik: Tried some more Crete. Just some more quick notes: There are not enough men northeast of Soudha. Three paras are not cutting it, they get totally obliterated. Especially without supply. The AI moves in, brushes them aside totally outnumbering them and retakes the villages. Even the bottleneck around that peninsula is not helping.
Same in Maleme AF as before: There are just too few hexes and way too many units around. Not mine, the enemy's. And dont say its regimental units or battalion units, the hexes stay the same. Crowded, no reinforcements, slaughterfest.
Another thing: The devs wrote this in the Dunkirk thread somewhere - if you give the AI superior numbers and resupply credits every round, it repairs its units and crushes you. Which makes it a very frustrating experience having to push back units and face them again two turns later. Thats why they cut the French down in Dunkirk to zero credits per round. You should do that, too. In Crete as in Russia. (In Russia, it is even realistic, at least in the beginning.)
Same as before: Supply or the lack of is the key. Those support units like light arty make things worse for me and the paras. They are in my way on the rough terrain, make easy targets, reduce my supply and help the AI crack my lines and retake villages. Constantly in the red, they are useless in attacking. Its kind of like getting shot in both knees and then trying to sprint.
Put shortly - most important things are cut enemy units waaayyyy down, maybe mine too. Cut down their credits supply per round to zero. There should be not more than 2-3 units guarding Maleme and 2-3 guarding the chokepoint to the northwest drop site. Give them no tanks at first.
And you cannot balance this by drowning the map in Stukas, bombers and Luftwaffe fighters, it just makes it crash.
Less is more this time. Right now, Crete serves as an epic gameplay roadblock in the campaign. Despite my absurd zeal for perfectionism, I am struggling to get anywhere. Even though this might be historically correct, it is not fun gameplay wise.
Suggestion: Make Maleme AF an easy target like it historically was when the allies accidentally moved out. Drop the paras northwest later. Move the dropsites around Buttercup AF south. Give every drop site more supply and give me some time to consolidate. Otherwise this is always over before turn 10.
BTW, I havent even gotten to the RN yet. That is a shitshow waiting to happen.
I am struggling to say this, but you should keep the map, some objectives, but wipe the units clean and start again, with less deployment of AI units. And leave the RN out of this. I mean, the map looks great and a para operation in Greece can be a lot of fun - but not this way.
Still keep up the great work, I wouldnt post if I didnt care or wouldnt appreciate it.

[Andy2012]

@Erik: Turn 5, RAF has arrived. I am obliterated in the Northwest, flanked from the south in Buttercup AF without reinforcements, facing a wall of reinforcements in the middle, my landings are at least still 2-3 turns away. The AI has just reinforced all its damaged units and brought in 5-8 fresh ones around the northwest alone. I hold Maleme AF, but only because I deployed the bulk of my Stukas and fighters there.
I am tapping out, this isnt any fun. You really need to scale the AI waaaaay down, at least 50-60%. No kidding.

[GiveWarAchance]

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[Erik2]

@Erik: Just tried last version of Crete again. Will write more over the next few days, just have played two turns.
Up so far: Game crashed on me again. Dont know why, usually it just does that when there is too much around as in WinterWar. Not sure this is the missions fault.
Also, another thing I noticed in two turns - it depends too much how and if you survive the first counterattack by Greeks, ANZAC, British and so on on your Paras on how you land in those villages. If all your paras are off, you get obliterated. If they drop nicely, you can hold the line. So I caught myself quickloading a lot to ensure they all drop into the villages nicely and dont have to conquer them in the second turn. Because especially west of Maleme, the AI moves the HeavyInf into the villages from the river hex and with arty support, you are then bogged down. Right now, I dont have a cure for this at hand, maybe let some paras start on the ground or give me those villages from the start? Dont know.
Will try more turns, maybe today. If the crash problems persists, I will report. Also, maybe think about the randomness of the start turn when dropping. Dont have a finite opinion on this.

There is one editor trick to allow the paras land in the village locations during the deployment phase. This of course means that the Allied AA does not get a chance to hit the Ju52s.
The player could use this trick or move the paras to a different location during turn-1.
Would you like to try this version? It is easy for me to change the scenario.

[Erik2]

Giving the Allies zero resource income is a good idea. I'll do it along with the deployment option mentioned in earlier post.

I'll add horse transports to the German art, flak, AT units so that they can more easily be moved.

I'll increase the supply level in all the villages. I know playing with low supply is no fun.

I'll see if I can reduce the number of units even more. Maybe spread the defenders out a bit. But the whole western sector is were the bulk of the defenders were stationed, so it should be difficult for the Germans.
Interestingly, in a mirror multiplayer Crete (based on an earlier campaign version) we have both as the Germans managed to capture Maleme althopugh I lost mine a few turns later. I also captured Rethimnon town and airfield.

I've never had any problems with Crete crashing, single or multiplayer. But this is probably depending on your PC specs. My Crete opponent had problemes with other large multi scenarios, but not Crete.
Of course it may be an AI problem.

Maleme was not an easy target historically. The NZ commander blundered as he ordered his battalion off the airfield and the Germans swiftly moved in. An Allied counter-attack almost succeeded.

i'll add an option to deploy the German/Italian seatransport north of the western sector. They should be able to hit the shores before the RN enters the battle.

The RN is now delayed, I think they are able to intervene about turn 10-12 at the earliest.

Sorry about your frustrations, but your comments really help me play-balance this. I'll post a new version shortly.
You are a good Student, Andy

[Erik2]

New Crete: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16806697/2Crete.zip

Campaign link updated in first post.

[Andy2012]

To get rid of flu in one day just eat slices of raw ginger. Garlic is good too if you can handle it but have to crush it to be effective.

Already lost it. Dont worry, I have the physical condition of the frontal armour of a Tiger II. Everything bounces off. Until I run out of fuel.

[Andy2012]

Giving the Allies zero resource income is a good idea. I'll do it along with the deployment option mentioned in earlier post.

I'll add horse transports to the German art, flak, AT units so that they can more easily be moved.

I'll increase the supply level in all the villages. I know playing with low supply is no fun.

I'll see if I can reduce the number of units even more. Maybe spread the defenders out a bit. But the whole western sector is were the bulk of the defenders were stationed, so it should be difficult for the Germans.
Interestingly, in a mirror multiplayer Crete (based on an earlier campaign version) we have both as the Germans managed to capture Maleme althopugh I lost mine a few turns later. I also captured Rethimnon town and airfield.

I've never had any problems with Crete crashing, single or multiplayer. But this is probably depending on your PC specs. My Crete opponent had problemes with other large multi scenarios, but not Crete.
Of course it may be an AI problem.

Maleme was not an easy target historically. The NZ commander blundered as he ordered his battalion off the airfield and the Germans swiftly moved in. An Allied counter-attack almost succeeded.

i'll add an option to deploy the German/Italian seatransport north of the western sector. They should be able to hit the shores before the RN enters the battle.

The RN is now delayed, I think they are able to intervene about turn 10-12 at the earliest.

Sorry about your frustrations, but your comments really help me play-balance this. I'll post a new version shortly.
You are a good Student, Andy

I always tell my students that they are good students when I kind of want to tell them the opposite. But maybe I'm just cruel.

Thanks for the effort. I will check out your new campaign and Crete mission. Just have less time to play right now, but I can still whinge and complain in these forums.

Couple of thoughts I developed so far (without playing your last version. If it is already in there, disregard) during a work meeting. (When bored, my mind wanders...):
I would tackle the mission design the following way to balance gameplay fun and historic reality:
1) Turn 1, Allies start: A small contingent of Aux Paras is obliterated in the northwest. Winter War had these intros, too.
2) Turn 2, Germans start with 3 Paras west of Maleme AF. Two are already landed, one in the air. Villages are already theirs. No supply problems now. Paras are at least four stars, two is not enough.
3) Turn 3, paras take Maleme AF, which is just held by regular ANZAC or Greek infantry. One unit.
4) Gebirgsjaeger support pops in Turn 4 (triggered by taking airstrip). Just two planes - this is a confined area and you can only land one plane per Turn. Same turn, two light arty pop up west of Maleme. No supply issues. Dont need AA, because you now also deploy 22 air supply near Maleme. Core force, Stukas and fighters. RAF still not there. Also, dont need heavyinf as mortar troops. Too slow for heavy terrain, take up too much supply. This is a light arty and para mission. Also, some paras pop up in the northwest. One is down in a village, two are in the air. Village has enough supply for all of them, so they can reinforce. Note: This slowly builds up your fighting force and you have the rewarding feeling of already taking an objective. This is about fun.
5) Turn 5-8 or 10: Both pincers move towards the two northern objective cities east of maleme. They are held by infantry, AA and arty. Should be overwhelmed in 2-3 turns.
6) Now you can deploy a landing force in the north (keep the current locations, they are fine) from your core troops. I always go light inf, light arty, light AT, nothing else. They move south over the sea in the following turns. Also you get 3 paras south of Buttercup AF, but south of the river. Village with enough supply is theirs already, one on the ground, two in the air. Also, you get the message that Greek and Anzac will counterattack your position in the North.
7) During the next turns, the Allies mount a counterattack against your cities moving units along the northern shore. (They already do that when they obliterate my three paras in turn 4 there.) Should be infantry, arty and some tanks. I should be able to hold them at the river. Maybe fly in light AT over Maleme AF. Now, the RAF also intervenes with 2-3 fighters and 2-3 bombers.
8. So while I hold off the counterattack in the Northwest, my landing force creeps closer and my paras attack Buttercup AF. If it is held by more than one unit, also give them light arty.
9) With the couterattack defeated in the northwest, my landing force lands in the middle and my 3 paras hold Buttercup AF. I now have to connect them. Major battle in the middle. Should be a fortified allied position with arty, heavyinf, AA and the works. After that, victory.

Notice: I left out the RN for now, also coastal batteries and that supergaggle of Stukas and two dozens bombers. It just overcrowds the map and makes you lose focus. I think gameplay-wise,shorter missions with a clear tactical goal and an obvious strategy / unit mix work best. Kiev kinda worked like that, also Bataan retreat or Raate Road in Winter War. Crete should be winnable this way in 20-25 turns, maximum turns is 30. You can add a bonus objective for being fast, more spec points. You could also add a briefing note to hurry up before the RN gets there - would justify turn limit "We must take Crete before the RN and RAF can bring down their full strength on us. Be done in 25 turns."

I know, this is pretty specific. But it kind of sums up my thinking on OoB - those superlong missions like Melbourne or Tokyo were just slow slogfests. Even though this might be historically correct, this is still supposed to be fun first. All the above Crete outline does well with maybe around 12-18 ground units and maybe 6 air units on the German side. Really helps you focus, make progress with objectives and rewards you with a win after 20-25 turns. Doesnt have to mean easy, just focused.

[comradep]

This looks interesting, I'll give it a go after finishing Blitzkrieg.

It's clear you know what you're doing, but based on the comments in the thread thus far it looks like your conversion might be too true to the original.

One of the main things that makes OoB different from PzC is that combat in PzC is (far) more lethal. Killing units with 2 attacks is very unlikely in OoB. It usually takes 4 or so, if the enemy unit passes its "end up with 1 strength instead of dying" roll.

Air power is also less powerful. In PzC, two experienced and overstrength tactical bomber runs on the same target (by placing one tactical bomber over it and swapping it with another after bombing) had a good chance of killing it or making it useless by 1941 unless it was a tough tank unit or a heavily dug-in infantry unit. In OoB, tactical bomber damage is much more limited, and units can't normally be overstrength anyway.

Fighters were also ideal "chipping away health 1 strength point at a time" units in both PzC and PG, and could even be a more reliable way of dealing with good Soviet tanks than your own armour, possibly due to their combat strength being overrated due to their high initiative. Fighters tend to only damage gun units reliable in OoB.

This is why, in PzC but also in the original Panzer General, unit count had to be fairly high in order to offer a challenge. I don't think unit count is actually all that different in many of the OoB scenarios, but they play out differently. You also tend to get a lot more turns, because combat is slower and less lethal.

A scenario like Crete with the PzC OOB works well for the PzC engine, where you can reliably kill or weaken enemy units with your air force or your land units (if you go for the naval landing variant). Aside from artillery, units also need to be adjacent to inflict damage. In OoB, those 2 hex mortar attacks from heavy infantry units can reduce readiness enough to make your men an easy target.

Scenarios intended to be a bit "rough" in PzC like Crete are a nightmare in OoB because you can't inflict the necessary punishment before you take it.

I'm sure you're aware of these differences, and these are just some general observations, not based on playing with your work yet.

[Andy2012]

This looks interesting, I'll give it a go after finishing Blitzkrieg.

It's clear you know what you're doing, but based on the comments in the thread thus far it looks like your conversion might be too true to the original.

One of the main things that makes OoB different from PzC is that combat in PzC is (far) more lethal. Killing units with 2 attacks is very unlikely in OoB. It usually takes 4 or so, if the enemy unit passes its "end up with 1 strength instead of dying" roll.

Air power is also less powerful. In PzC, two experienced and overstrength tactical bomber runs on the same target (by placing one tactical bomber over it and swapping it with another after bombing) had a good chance of killing it or making it useless by 1941 unless it was a tough tank unit or a heavily dug-in infantry unit. In OoB, tactical bomber damage is much more limited, and units can't normally be overstrength anyway.

Fighters were also ideal "chipping away health 1 strength point at a time" units in both PzC and PG, and could even be a more reliable way of dealing with good Soviet tanks than your own armour, possibly due to their combat strength being overrated due to their high initiative. Fighters tend to only damage gun units reliable in OoB.

This is why, in PzC but also in the original Panzer General, unit count had to be fairly high in order to offer a challenge. I don't think unit count is actually all that different in many of the OoB scenarios, but they play out differently. You also tend to get a lot more turns, because combat is slower and less lethal.

A scenario like Crete with the PzC OOB works well for the PzC engine, where you can reliably kill or weaken enemy units with your air force or your land units (if you go for the naval landing variant). Aside from artillery, units also need to be adjacent to inflict damage. In OoB, those 2 hex mortar attacks from heavy infantry units can reduce readiness enough to make your men an easy target.

Scenarios intended to be a bit "rough" in PzC like Crete are a nightmare in OoB because you can't inflict the necessary punishment before you take it.

I'm sure you're aware of these differences, and these are just some general observations, not based on playing with your work yet.

Good observations, agree. Staying true to Panzercorps works in some missions (Belgrade and Metaxas Line work fine that way), but is just not cutting it in others. Or makes them totally different - in Panzercorps, you kind of ignored Brest until you get that superheavy mortar. In OoB, I had already obliterated Brest when it showed up. Also, in Panzercorps you can easily hold an objective with an infantry unit dug in in a city. In OoB, you have to hold the whole supply line behind your armoured spearhead. Also, force composition is different, Panzercorps is, well, panzers. OoB is infantry and AT plus some tanks.

[GiveWarAchance]

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[Andy2012]

1) Turn 1, Allies start: A small contingent of Aux Paras is obliterated in the northwest. Winter War had these intros, too.
2) Turn 2, Germans start with 3 Paras west of Maleme AF. Two are already landed, one in the air. Villages are already theirs. No supply problems now. Paras are at least four stars, two is not enough.
3) Turn 3, paras take Maleme AF, which is just held by regular ANZAC or Greek infantry. One unit.
4) Gebirgsjaeger support pops in Turn 4 (triggered by taking airstrip). Just two planes - this is a confined area and you can only land one plane per Turn. Same turn, two light arty pop up west of Maleme. No supply issues. Dont need AA,

All that is astonishingly historical, especially the limited ability to land planes which was a severe struggle with Junkers being destroyed by artillery until some Stuka aces landed and scouted out the arty on foot before bombing them. Just so you know, the 'unwanted' AA was attempted to be shipped to Maleme by sea but failed when the Royal Navy mercilessly shot to bits an ancient flotilla of sailing boats loaded with troops, supplies and AA and finished off survivors in the water with pompom guns. Sounds like Erik really made it same as in the Crete book by Beaver which is probably the most detailed book on Crete. There is also an Osprey Campaign book on Crete too which would be useful cause it has sketches & details of all the events.

That Forrest Gump Feeling: "Look, Ma, I have no idea what I am talking about, but I was still right." (Dont know anything about Crete.)
I was mostly thinking about gameplay, but it is great to be historically correct by accident.
Erik, do your thing!

[prattaa]

I finally got around to starting and all seems good on Belgrade. All objectives worked and finished with enough time.

One omission that I noticed, and this is probably an error within the unit tables of the game, but the Panzerjager IB is no longer available. It's the only mobile AT the Germans have at this stage so it is a pretty important unit that did see service on the East front.

I'm hoping Erik gets some support on the core import feature. His PZC conversion campaigns are the only thing keeping me playing OOB right now.

[GiveWarAchance]

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[Erik2]

Crete

If branching was working in OOB (you could select next battle), then I'd split Crete in three versions for the battles at Maleme, Rethimnon and Iraklio.
An I'd keep the full-scale version for multiplayer which for some reason appears more balanced thasn the campaign version.

The original PzC Crete scenario was divided in two, one naval and one air. But it was all pretty fictional whithout even a slight nod at history. I remember I was really disappointed with this when I placed the original campaign.
So for OOB i decided to roll my own.
It is a difficult scenario to balance.