scaring shooty cavalry

[hammy]

You don't see accounts of 100YW French soldiers continuing to fight with a dozen arrows sticking out of their armour. You do however get accounts of crusader infantry marching on looking like porcupines.

[lawrenceg]

outshot longbows in every contest

,

velocity, distances and penetrations

Much as the velocity, penetration and max range of 5.56 outperforms 7.62 no doubt. I know which I'd rather be shot by.

I think you'll find an AK47 has better penetration than 5.56 NATO Ball against a lot of targets. 7.62 AP certainly does.

Asiatic composite bows (those used by Huns, Mongols, Turks, etc.) outshot longbows in every contest.

I'd be surprised if a bow used by a Hun ever shot in a contest against a medieval longbow.

In any case, rules should be based on performance in battle with the soldiers standard battle ammunition not performance in contests.

Now, maybe Asiatic mounted bowmen did perform better in battle than European foot bowmen and the rules are based on the Anglo-centric prejudice that longbows are better than anything "Johnnie Foreigner" could have. However, you have not produced any evidence of that.

[nikgaukroger]

I'll have to see how a horse archer army does in the game. Asiatic composite bows (those used by Huns, Mongols, Turks, etc.) outshot longbows in every contest.

I wasn't aware that the Huns, Mongols or Turks ever faced a longbow based army such as the English. Did our empire stretch further than I thought

IMO actual battle information shows that the longbow had better armour penetration. When faced by massed longbows the French decided that dismounting was the better option and so started doing so, knights did not do that in the east where they faced composite bow using Ottomans other than at Nicopolis when they had to get over a stake barrier. This difference, IMO, speaks volumes about the effect of the different arrows (albeit, maybe, in this comparison we are looking at their effect on horses rather than men in the main).

Believe me I am no fan of the "longbow myth" but I'm quite happy that the longbow had some advantages. However, also trust me that the eastern horse archer armies are perfectly effective in FoG and, again IMO, work historically.

[philqw78]

I think you'll find an AK47 has better penetration than 5.56 NATO Ball against a lot of targets

Exactly. Depends how you measure things and what/whose statistics you want to use. So one authors opinion on a weapon he never used, the asiatic bows and longbows in these rules would be 500+ years old now, does not hold much for me even if he did write a book. So comparisons of weapons like this are not my cup of tea. Looking at the mess left on the battlefield afterwards is a bit more useful for us.

[flameberge]

I don't know if any of you bow hunt deer but go to a sporting goods store and look at the difference between a crossbow arrow and a bow arrow. The difference in arrow size and arrow tip is huge. I know it's not the same thing but a shortbow would have a much smaller arrow than one from a longbow. That crossbow will shoot its bolt at a faster velocity and penetration but I'd rather be hit by a crossbow.

[fredrik]

Aren't we getting a little sidetracked here? Might I be so bold as to suggest you start a new thread discussing the relative merits of the longbow and asiatic composite bow and let us get back to the topic at hand, namely how to best handle shooty cav in the game?

Personally, I've had a heck of a time matching up my Condottiere against the various "shoot n' scoot" armies at the club - I have no MF crossbows or Cv of my own, my army being a combination of Average Kn, some light foot of various flavors, and HF billmen/pikemen - all in all an ideal target for shooty cav armies such as the Ottomans (shudder...)

In my first attempts I deployed my army in one massive line of Kn with the objective of sweeping the lighter opposing horse off the field, which failed abysmally since the Kn BGs (in lines 6 bases wide) tended to disrupt rather rapidly in the face of concentrated shooting. I still have problems with Cv/LH armies but here are some tips that has made my life a little less torturous in such matchups:

1. Always use an IC - the +2 bonus to CHTs is invaluable, and helps restraining the knights

2. Use a rear line of cheap foot troops for an additional +1 rear support bonus to morale

3. When using average Kn, always use 6-element sized BGs for the main units, they are somewhat harder to break with shooting

4. Never deploy large BGs in a single element deep line - doing so makes it too easy for the opponent to concentrate shooting BGs (normally size 4 in the case of shooty horse) on a single target. I now run my Kn BGs in a 3x2 configuration which has helped a lot.

5. Support your main line BGs with plenty of small 4-base LF bow/firearm/slinger units. I keep a 2-base-width distance between my Kn BGs where I put these small LF units - they are quite safe from opposing horse (since the Kn can intercept charge anyone having a go at the LF) and help draw off shooting dice from the main units. Remember that LF interpenetrate Kn freely so I can throw an LF unit out in front of a Kn that disrupts to buy me some time to rally them. Also, combined shooting from two 4-base LF BGs can quickly disrupt a Cv/LH unit, especially if one of the units has firearms.

6. 8-base Pk BGs is great for flank protection since they can easily reform to face any direction (especially when they have an IC in range to give them a bonus for CMTs). If completely surrounded they have the option of orb formation which is powerful enough against Cv/LH. Supporting shooty LF will give opposing horse something to worry about.

7. I've experimented with a weak 4-base Kn unit for flank marching on the flank where the opponent is most likely to flank march himself. My Kn is driven off and will enter the table one turn before my opponents flank march, giving me the opportunity to deploy, make a 180 degree turn, and thus pinning the opposing flankers between my Kn and the table edge.

8. MF shooters are probably the best option for hurting opposing Cv/LH (if you don't have access to good Cv - ie the armed/superior/swordsmen type). I have yet to try it but I think 6-base units in a 3x2 configuration interspersed between the Kn could be quite nasty for the enemy horse.

As mentioned, I'm still having enormous problems with shooty cav armies but these tactics have helped a lot.

[shall]

Well the first answer is something that shoots back even better. You want to kill them on table so they can't evade off for 1 AP.

My War of the Roses English did a fine job of it. If they want to preserve the right to evade you are 1.5 dice vs 1 all along the line and more importantly often 6 dice vs a 4 base BG when they are 4 dice vs and 8 base BG. Believe me it hurts. You need width to do it and the WoR English has it. Then only charge them when they are FRG already.

Another good answer is a mix of lancers and LH. Charge both together and the LH will have a decent chance to catch the shooty cav in the rear. Ideal for this: something with lancer LH in case they choose to stand. Kepp LH in column next to BG of H Cav.

Finally large quantities of MF IF can chase them off table without ever taking a CT. Take 12s 3 deep and see how easy it is for them to get 4 hits on you. Ancient Britons did this nicely to Ilkhanids once.

Si

[nikgaukroger]

6. 8-base Pk BGs is great for flank protection since they can easily reform to face any direction (especially when they have an IC in range to give them a bonus for CMTs). If completely surrounded they have the option of orb formation which is powerful enough against Cv/LH. Supporting shooty LF will give opposing horse something to worry about.

Oooooo, target - can only be protected - end of line as well, I'd pay opponents to do that

[fredrik]

Another good answer is a mix of lancers and LH. Charge both together and the LH will have a decent chance to catch the shooty cav in the rear. Ideal for this: something with lancer LH in case they choose to stand. Kepp LH in column next to BG of H Cav.

An excellent suggestion, why didn't I think of that myself? (wait, don't answer that...)

Oooooo, target - can only be protected - end of line as well, I'd pay opponents to do that

I wouldn't dream of arguing with the reigning FOG world champion , but since the only thing in the Condotta list that has higher armour class than Protected is the knights themselves I'd think the pikemen are the lesser evil? Supported (as in "screened") by light foot that can evade through the pike block if charged I have found them to be a good and cheap flank protection unit against shooty cav/LH, echeloned back slightly from the main line.

What would you suggest as an alternative means of protecting the main line from the inevitable attempt at sweeping around the flanks to strike at the camp and rear, if terrain cannot be used to anchor the flank? Apart from not advancing at all and just wait for the game to end in a draw?

[nikgaukroger]

Another good answer is a mix of lancers and LH. Charge both together and the LH will have a decent chance to catch the shooty cav in the rear. Ideal for this: something with lancer LH in case they choose to stand. Kepp LH in column next to BG of H Cav.

There is a downside to this though so be careful.

If the shooty cavalry evade and are not caught by the lancers but are caught by the LH there is a very good chance that they will give the LH a hammering. Although the LH are on a ++ for hitting the Cv in the rear they do not cause a drop in cohesion level and lose 1 dice per 2 in combat so whilst it is quite likely that the Cv will lose the impact phase if they don't double drop they tend to then turn round and fight back at + or ++ themselves with more dice. I broke a couple of LH BGs that way in Helsinki.

[nikgaukroger]

I wouldn't dream of arguing with the reigning FOG world champion , but since the only thing in the Condotta list that has higher armour class than Protected is the knights themselves I'd think the pikemen are the lesser evil? Supported (as in "screened") by light foot that can evade through the pike block if charged I have found them to be a good and cheap flank protection unit against shooty cav/LH, echeloned back slightly from the main line.

What would you suggest as an alternative means of protecting the main line from the inevitable attempt at sweeping around the flanks to strike at the camp and rear, if terrain cannot be used to anchor the flank? Apart from not advancing at all and just wait for the game to end in a draw?

To be honest a dismounted BG of knights is better IMO - heavily armoured foot are pretty invulnerable to Bow and can probably be deployed 1 deep for a 4 base frontage. Harder to hit and cover more space than pikemen.

[shall]

There is a downside to this though so be careful.

If the shooty cavalry evade and are not caught by the lancers but are caught by the LH there is a very good chance that they will give the LH a hammering. Although the LH are on a ++ for hitting the Cv in the rear they do not cause a drop in cohesion level and lose 1 dice per 2 in combat so whilst it is quite likely that the Cv will lose the impact phase if they don't double drop they tend to then turn round and fight back at + or ++ themselves with more dice. I broke a couple of LH BGs that way in Helsinki.

I never said it was risk free...

But even if you lose the LH your Cv - if used well - will usually get revenge...and as the toruble is catching a few of the slippery b****rs I find it works pretty well. It wouldn't of course if you had CTs if they routed so don't put any LH near other LH. If they break the pursuing shooty cav will usually end up charging the lancers - often while DISRed from the rear charge.

It does however take careful timing and is easy to get wrong to disastrous effect! So on this nick is right - not one for beginners.

You pays your money and takes your choices as they say....

Si

[shall]

To be honest a dismounted BG of knights is better IMO - heavily armoured foot are pretty invulnerable to Bow and can probably be deployed 1 deep for a 4 base frontage. Harder to hit and cover more space than pikemen.

I agree completely with nik.

6 H Arm foot in single lines held up the wing of a Parthian army for me at the Challenge. They died in the end but not from bowfire. 6s to hit made my opponent give up and spend 3 bounds re-deploying 12 LH into the centre. They never took a test from shooting. The Cataphracts eventually rode them down, but the had done their job and ther rest of the Parthian army was trapped in a mass of fire from WoR longbowmen - culminating in 12 dice at one BG of 4 Cataphracts at one point.

If you want to hold a flank you want troops that will not be forced to take a test. The -1 for side edge is a killer. Only H Arm Sup troops can really manage that with reasonable certainty IMHO.

Si

[KingHassan]

" - often while DISRed from the rear charge."


The Cav wouldn't be disrupted from the LH hitting them in the rear would they?

[lawrenceg]

" - often while DISRed from the rear charge."


The Cav wouldn't be disrupted from the LH hitting them in the rear would they?

No, but they might be after the impact combat at -- vs ++ even with twice the dice.

[ethan]

" - often while DISRed from the rear charge."


The Cav wouldn't be disrupted from the LH hitting them in the rear would they?

No, but they might be after the impact combat at -- vs ++ even with twice the dice.

Actually that is 50-50 almost exactly. Each dice the Cv throws scores 1/3 of hit and each dice the LH throws scores 2/3 so the expected value of LH throwing X dice and Cv throwing 2X dice is the same number of hits.

[shall]

Usually slightly worse than 50-50 as the shooty cav are usually superior. But have achieved it twice. Had the Lh break a couple of times but the cav saved them by blocking pursuit. More common is that the LH lose 2 melee rounds but end up FRG when you charge with the lancers and save them.

Impact = draw
Melee = bad loss for LH drop DISR
Melee their round = bad loss for LH drop FRG
Next Impact phase lancers hit shotty cav on wide frontage and 2x dice in melee as 2 deep.

All depends ont he LH not double dropping but in impact its 1 dice at 3s vs 2 at 5s so its hard to lose by 2. All you ned ist o pass one CT at -2 - so needing an 8 with a general - and you will get away with DISR. You may of course lose 2 bases if things go badly.

Si

[hazelbark]

I'll have to see how a horse archer army does in the game. Asiatic composite bows (those used by Huns, Mongols, Turks, etc.) outshot longbows in every contest.

I wasn't aware that the Huns, Mongols or Turks ever faced a longbow based army such as the English. Did our empire stretch further than I thought

Funny you don't look mongolian.

[fredrik]

I played a game yesterday with my Condotta against an all-mounted all-shooting flank-marching Cv/sup/bow/swordmen monstrosity of an Ottoman, a matchup which I have been regularly losing much to my consternation and boundless glee of my esteemed club mates.

This time however I managed a 15-4 win to my great surprise with a new list and some good luck. Major contributions were:

1. I had a pre-battle initiative of +3 which gave me the initiative to pick the location of the battle and I chose Hilly with a coast. The coastline meant one of my flanks was safe from flank marches (my opponent confessed to originally having planned for a double flank march which would have been devastating) and some maximum sized difficult terrain meant that we were to play on a rather narrow battlefield. His skirmishers outnumbered and outclassed mine so I was unable to contest the bad going, but it severely constrained the maneuverability of his mounted, giving me the opportunity to catch the slippery bastards for once. I could also put my camp in relative safety on my extreme right flank squeezed in between the coast and a small patch of difficult terrain which would have been nigh on impossible for the ottoman horse to negotiate. Without question losing the PBI was the major contribution to the ottoman defeat.

2. I re-did my list and took out all my small 4-base LH crossbowmen and replaced these with a 6-base LH-xbow unit supported by a small 4-base LF handgunner unit. This combination supported by a 4-base knight unit won me my right flank against heavy LH opposition, the combined fire of the LH and LF breaking one Ottoman horse archer unit and chasing off the rest. I have three four-base LF handgunner units in total which have proved invaluable in terrorizing the small horse archer units, as long as they operate within evade distance of the heavier supporting HF/Kn units and in the 12" command radius of the IC they are quite safe and a major threat to enemy mounted.

3. My 6-base knight units faced off against the Ottoman superior Cv and eventually routed these. I moved up to within one inch before charging which made my opponent a bit nervous about evading forcing him to commit to hand-to-hand combat, throwing in his commanders in the melee in an attempt to break my knights. The knights prevailed however and took out the cream of the turkish nobility, all three BGs of them, winning the center for me. My knights operated in single line on a 6-base frontage which allowed me to maximize my advantage both in impact and melee. I put out a 4-base LF unit in front of them until I was ready to charge which broke up the ottoman shooting.

(as a side note, drilled Kn is expensive but very practical in this type of fluid battle, allowing me to easily reform and maneuver to counter the more mobile ottomans)

4. It was apparent that the ottomans would attempt a flank march on my left flank so my plan was to stall here while attempting to win in the center and on the right. To that end I deployed a 12-man pike unit (three bases deep to cover as much space as possible, even with just a single + in impact and melee it would be enough to deter the turkish horse) and a 6-base unit of HF billmen. The pikemen were eventually routed due to failing a critical CMT to form Orb before being charged in front and both flanks, but held up four units of ottoman horse long enough for me to break the center and allow me to redeploy. I will try using dismounted knights in this role when I have the figures painted up.

5. Again, the IC meant I was relatively safe from shooting, even without rear support. I cannot stress the importance of an IC enough against his type of opponent, both for the PBI bonus and morale. Previously I had been using a Swiss ally which I removed for this game to ensure all of my army was able to benefit from the IC bonus.

[shall]

Sounds like fun..

1. I had a pre-battle initiative of +3 which gave me the initiative to pick the location of the battle and I chose Hilly with a coast. The coastline meant one of my flanks was safe from flank marches (my opponent confessed to originally having planned for a double flank march which would have been devastating) and some maximum sized difficult terrain meant that we were to play on a rather narrow battlefield. His skirmishers outnumbered and outclassed mine so I was unable to contest the bad going, but it severely constrained the maneuverability of his mounted, giving me the opportunity to catch the slippery bastards for once. I could also put my camp in relative safety on my extreme right flank squeezed in between the coast and a small patch of difficult terrain which would have been nigh on impossible for the ottoman horse to negotiate. Without question losing the PBI was the major contribution to the ottoman defeat.

Look a fine use of a high initiative level to force a battle on terrain that suits.

2. I re-did my list and took out all my small 4-base LH crossbowmen and replaced these with a 6-base LH-xbow unit supported by a small 4-base LF handgunner unit. This combination supported by a 4-base knight unit won me my right flank against heavy LH opposition, the combined fire of the LH and LF breaking one Ottoman horse archer unit and chasing off the rest. I have three four-base LF handgunner units in total which have proved invaluable in terrorizing the small horse archer units, as long as they operate within evade distance of the heavier supporting HF/Kn units and in the 12" command radius of the IC they are quite safe and a major threat to enemy mounted.

6s are certainly much more potent than 4s and if you can afford the drop in BGs and are going to use LH offensively like this they make a lot of sense.

3. My 6-base knight units faced off against the Ottoman superior Cv and eventually routed these. I moved up to within one inch before charging which made my opponent a bit nervous about evading forcing him to commit to hand-to-hand combat, throwing in his commanders in the melee in an attempt to break my knights. The knights prevailed however and took out the cream of the turkish nobility, all three BGs of them, winning the center for me. My knights operated in single line on a 6-base frontage which allowed me to maximize my advantage both in impact and melee. I put out a 4-base LF unit in front of them until I was ready to charge which broke up the ottoman shooting. (as a side note, drilled Kn is expensive but very practical in this type of fluid battle, allowing me to easily reform and maneuver to counter the more mobile ottomans)

Makes sense on all sides. I still probably would have risked running for it.

4. It was apparent that the ottomans would attempt a flank march on my left flank so my plan was to stall here while attempting to win in the center and on the right. To that end I deployed a 12-man pike unit (three bases deep to cover as much space as possible, even with just a single + in impact and melee it would be enough to deter the turkish horse) and a 6-base unit of HF billmen. The pikemen were eventually routed due to failing a critical CMT to form Orb before being charged in front and both flanks, but held up four units of ottoman horse long enough for me to break the center and allow me to redeploy. I will try using dismounted knights in this role when I have the figures painted up.

Excellent used of troops to buy time so the army can do the business eslewhere. A lot of FoG is about master plans and timing.

5. Again, the IC meant I was relatively safe from shooting, even without rear support. I cannot stress the importance of an IC enough against his type of opponent, both for the PBI bonus and morale. Previously I had been using a Swiss ally which I removed for this game to ensure all of my army was able to benefit from the IC bonus.

Very helpful vs shooters for sure. My Ancient Briton tend to ride through storms of arrows with Bodicae in the background too.

Si