LORDS OF THE BALKANS circa 1305

[batesmotel]

batesmotel (Central Byzantine) 17/34 beat JocaRamiro (Ottomans) 39/34

Thanks for the game.

Chris

[fogman]

Steppe armies certainly made use of the concept of letting their opponents rout or feigned rout troops in order to force themselves to over extend and expose them selves to being flanked and defeated in detail, so defense in depth is certainly not something only appropriate to 1943. Historically armies from the Romans on frequently fought in multiple lines for similar reasons so again this isn't inappropriate or anachronistic as a tactic for an ancient/medieval battle.

the term i was missing was 'elastic'. The classic roman republican model may have had three lines (principes, hastatii, triarii) but all three were 'hard' lines, the second and third coming up to plug the holes. In elastic defense, the first line is 'soft', weakly held, with strong points that serve as anchors. Enemy units were allowed to flow in between two (or more) strong points which kept the base of the breakthrough narrow, and as they dissipated their strength in the wide space behind the lines, mobile reserves hit them. This elastic defense in depth can be used in FoG even with non cavalry armies although in reality it is only applicable to mechanized warfare to counter the concept of 'Schwerpunkt'. In ancient and medieval warfare, the kind of enemy infiltration allowed by elastic defense would demoralize and rout an army.

Feigning retreat as steppe armies are bound to do could be seen as an approximation of this principle but belongs to a different register. Light troops in FoG are used extensively as decoys against shock troops to take advantage of a rather badly implemented rule (when you have to turn the facing of your lancers away from the front line to prevent them from charging, you know something is really wrong).

[fogman]

catalans (fogman) 17/40 vs latins (jocaramiro) 37/34
the latin knights were lured away from their infantry and overwhelmed.

[iandavidsmith]

Round 1 result

iandavidsmith (Epirotes) 38/40 win
vrs
Ulysisgrunt (Serbs )35/35 loss

A very close game that lasted 12 turns.
Thanks for the game,
cheers
Ian

[JocaRamiro]

Regarding Fogman/JocaRamiro, Catalans vs Latins

The Latins thought the knights would address one prong of a Catalan advance. it did not go well.

[fogman]

byzantines (fogman) 28/34 vs bulgarians (iandavidsmith) 38/34
close until the last turn. the only way to take out the mass of bulgarian nobles was to engage in a swirling melee to get rear attacks on them.

from what i can tell, there are only two games left with one week to go in round 1:
jocaramiro vs bloodphoenix (ser vs epi)
iandavidsmith vs jocaramiro (ser vs bul)

[iandavidsmith]

My Final Round 1 game

iandavidsmith (Serbs) 14/35 win
vrs
jocaramiro (Bulgarians) 41/34 loss

Looking forward to round 2

Ian

[JocaRamiro]

Regarding JocaRamiro and Bloodpheonix, there appears to be a problem. I do not believe the game has started.

For my part, I think I initiated the challenges I was supposed to, but I do not see this game as a challenge anywhere. Did I drop the ball?

JocaRamiro

[JocaRamiro]

IN the alternative, perhaps the game already happened.

Score a victory for the Serbs. (Epirotes 45, Serbs 14)

The Serbs advanced with heavy cavalry units on the sides and a center reserve. The battle descended into a melee.

[fogman]

looks like all the games have been played.

ROUND 2 can now start. Make sure you read from the right schedule. same settings: no fow, no double moves.

[fogman]

challenges up:

serbs (fogman) vs epirots (jocaramiro). pw: joca

latins (fogman) vs catalans (iandavidsmith). pw: iandavid

[ulysisgrunt]

for jocarimo
Latins vs, Catalans; pw: jocarimo

for batesmotel
BYz vs. Otto pw: baresmotel

[ulysisgrunt]

For fogman

Sebs vs Bulg

pw: fogman

[iandavidsmith]

Round 2 challenges for.....

ulysisgrunt:
Byzantines vs Bulgarians
pw: grunt

batesmotel:
Serbs vs Epirotes
pw: psycho

Good Luck , Ian

[JocaRamiro]

To duplicate private messages I think I sent:

Byzantines vs Bulgarians for Bloodphoenix: Password = BPR2

Serbs vs. Bulgarians for iandavidsmith: Password = IDSR2

[batesmotel]

My round 2 challenges are up:

Latin vs Catalan - password "bloodphoenix"
Byzantines vs Bulgarians- password "fogman"

Chris

[batesmotel]

Round 2
batesmotel (Ottomans) 23/34 beat Ulysisgrunt (Byzantine) 42/34

Thanks for the game.

Chris

[ulysisgrunt]

The Latin Knights rode down the brave Catalans in the open.....
Franks 16/34
Catalans 40/40 (Jocarimo)

Danny Weitz

[bloodphoenix]

Sorry, I didn't realize Round 2 started early...was thinking it would start this weekend, and was too busy to keep current on reading this thread!

I will get my game challenges posted sometime today.

Wanted to comment on this discussion:
"the term i was missing was 'elastic'. The classic roman republican model may have had three lines (principes, hastatii, triarii) but all three were 'hard' lines, the second and third coming up to plug the holes. In elastic defense, the first line is 'soft', weakly held, with strong points that serve as anchors. Enemy units were allowed to flow in between two (or more) strong points which kept the base of the breakthrough narrow, and as they dissipated their strength in the wide space behind the lines, mobile reserves hit them. This elastic defense in depth can be used in FoG even with non cavalry armies although in reality it is only applicable to mechanized warfare to counter the concept of 'Schwerpunkt'. In ancient and medieval warfare, the kind of enemy infiltration allowed by elastic defense would demoralize and rout an army."

Interesting analysis. Of course, the Velites also served in some ways as that elastic, "soft" front line, though I recognize they lacked the "strong points" you mentioned. I feel a compulsion to add that what you described is very similar to the tactics the Romans did develop for dealing with attacks by scythed chariots and elephants, opening up gaps in their front ranks that would allow them to pass through and then be surrounded and destroyed.

[bloodphoenix]

Okay, posted my designated challenges:

Serbs vs Epirotes to Ulysisgrunt (PW: Ulysis)

Byzantines vs Ottomans to Fogman (PW: Fogman)

Serbians vs Bulgarians to iandavidsmith (PW: iandavid)

May God have mercy on my soul...