Pike and Shot announced

[LandMarine47]

What is the exact scale of units? BA worked of small 5 man squads, but here? 10-20 Pikeman?

[rbodleyscott]

What is the exact scale of units? BA worked of small 5 man squads, but here? 10-20 Pikeman?

Although the game uses Slitherine's STUB engine, which is used for BA, the combat representation and mechanics are completely different from BA. So:

500 men in a standard pike and shot unit in the later TYW and ECW.

Units are larger in the early TYW with both sides using 1,000 strong pike and shot battalions and the Catholic League using 2,000 strong ones until after Breitenfeld.

Cavalry units vary from 200 to 400 men.

[rbodleyscott]

Is the editor able to create new 30 years war scenarios or only modifying the existing ones ?

Certainly it will allow you to create new 30YW scenarios, and a lot more besides:

The Pike and Shot game engine includes the necessary rules to cover any military system worldwide from 1494 to 1698.

At the moment the unit definition file includes units for the TYW, ECW and Italian Wars, but it is easy to add further units, and many of these could make use of the existing graphics.

So you could potentially develop scenarios for any reasonably large battle worldwide in the 16th or 17th century.

We have several expansions planned to make full use of this versatility.

[rbodleyscott]

I agree on phased resolution for Black Powder era. Move, Offensive Fire, Melee likely.

In each side's turn the side can move its units and shoot or charge into close combat. The enemy troops will return fire.

Between the turns there is a phase in which troops that have not already shot this turn shoot automatically, close combats continue, troops rout and pursue or break off etc. Further combats may be initiated automatically in this phase if pursuing units contact fresh enemy.

The factors affecting impact and continuing close combat (melee) are different, so that the effect of all the different tactical systems can be represented.

Like the Field of Glory Renaissance table-top rules, Pike & Shot uses a "Points of Advantage" system rather than numerical combat factors. This allows the scissors-paper-stone effects of various competing tactical systems to be fully represented. However, the opportunity has been taken to improve various features, and tone down some (such as armour advantage, which possibly has too much effect in the table-top game because the table-top system has to be more coarse-grained to keep manual combat results calculation simple).

The UI optionally displays all the factors affecting a potential combat (including impact and melee phases) on the tooltip prior to initiating combat, and automatically details them in a popup report after each combat is resolved.

[Scutarii]

Ummm then the Pike and shot is the base game with scens/armies covering TYW, 2 planned "army packs" for ECW and Italy and if these 2 do it ok more "army packs" no??? interesting, i expect one covers the Japan civil wars.

In game description: "20 troop-types, 25 “capabilities” and numerous different unit organisations"

What means capabilities??? units have special fight tactics??? i think in caracole for cavalry.
Is possible edit units or you have predefined troop types+organisation for them???

Thanks.

[rbodleyscott]

What means capabilities??? units have special fight tactics???

Pretty much, yes.

In this period a lot of troops had similar weaponry, but used it in different ways. For example, although most cavalry were equipped with pistols and sword, some tried to shoot it out with carbines or pistols at a distance, some charged the enemy, discharging their pistols just before impact, and some charged sword in hand. Then, in the melee, they used any remaining loaded pistols.

So to represent this, we have the following capabilities:

Pistol (Shooting)
Carbine

to represent those trying to shoot it out at a distance (using the caracole).

Pistol (Impact)

to represent those discharging their pistols just before impact during the charge,

Impact Mounted

to represent those charging sword in hand.

Pistol (Melee)

to represent the use of pistols in the melee.

Typically a unit would be rated with one of the following capability combinations:

Pistol (Shooting) + Pistol (Melee) [An obsolete tactical system by the time of the TYW, but needed for earlier periods].
Carbine + Pistol (Melee).
Pistol (Impact) + Pistol (Melee).
Impact Mounted + Pistol (Melee).

The units with Carbine or Pistol (Shooting) have a distance shooting capability, but the others don't because they are saving their pistols for close combat.

The "chargy" classifications will have a major advantage against the "shooty" types in Impact close combat.

Moreover, charging sword in hand proved rather scary to less-well-trained enemy horse, so Impact Mounted have a major Impact advantage against Pistol (Impact) if the Pistol(Impact) types are Average, but not if they are Veterans.

Similar interactions affect other capabilities - e.g. Pike, Musket, Salvo etc.

Units don't have to be entirely made up of the same capability - thus an ideal later 30YW pike and shot unit might have 34% pike and 66% musket, but earlier units and poorly equipped units might have a higher proportion of pike. Late 17th century units would have an even lower proportion of pikes, or abandon them altogether and replace them with bayonets.

Steady foot units with at least some pikemen are able to fend off frontal cavalry charges fairly easily. Late 17th century musketeers with bayonets have a slightly harder time in open ground, but their extra firepower compensates. Earlier musketeers without pikemen or bayonets are dog's meat if caught in the open by cavalry, but are fine if behind hedges or field fortifications, or if they are commanded shot adjacent to their own cavalry.

Is possible edit units or you have predefined troop types+organisation for them???

All the unit definitions are held in a spreadsheet, from which the game reads off the units' data when the scenario is started. The unit definitions can be edited as you wish, using any combination of the pre-defined capabilities, and additional units can be added. Obviously in Multiplayer games, both sides must be using the same definitions.

[Micha63]

Is the editor able to create new 30 years war scenarios or only modifying the existing ones ?

Certainly it will allow you to create new 30YW scenarios, and a lot more besides:

The Pike and Shot game engine includes the necessary rules to cover any military system worldwide from 1494 to 1698.

At the moment the unit definition file includes units for the TYW, ECW and Italian Wars, but it is easy to add further units, and many of these could make use of the existing graphics.

So you could potentially develop scenarios for any reasonably large battle worldwide in the 16th or 17th century.

We have several expansions planned to make full use of this versatility.

Sounds promesing.

[Scutarii]

Thanks a lot for the reply, i like a lot the capabilities system, maybe armor is something i dont want see removed, i have HPS REN and maybe this is one of the few things i like in the engine to represent the period because made the armored units primary targets for artillery over unprotected cavalry for example.

Something i need ask, units are going to have diferent formations??? i think in battles where armies receive reinforcements or fight an encounter battle or needs send troops to a long flanking attack... we are going to have at least one formation type to fight and other to deploy units faster???

And a little observation... is possible capture artillery??? or you only can destroy it??? ummm i think in wargames where even you can kill the artillery crews but enemy can recrew them... to prevent this you have spike order to negate guns to enemy... i ask this because i see arty units with no soldiers, only the guns... i supose this means arty units only have 2 status, OK or destroyed... maybe a low crew effect???

Game looks great, cant wait to test it... expect we can sign for beta test soon

[lecrop]

All the unit definitions are held in a spreadsheet, from which the game reads off the units' data when the scenario is started. The unit definitions can be edited as you wish, using any combination of the pre-defined capabilities, and additional units can be added. Obviously in Multiplayer games, both sides must be using the same definitions.

Very nice, really mod friendly!

I imagine there will be some internal checking system to avoid problems with different files in multiplayer games...

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks a lot for the reply, i like a lot the capabilities system, maybe armor is something i dont want see removed, i have HPS REN and maybe this is one of the few things i like in the engine to represent the period because made the armored units primary targets for artillery over unprotected cavalry for example.

Armour still has a significant effect, especially in cavalry vs cavalry combat.

Something i need ask, units are going to have diferent formations??? i think in battles where armies receive reinforcements or fight an encounter battle or needs send troops to a long flanking attack... we are going to have at least one formation type to fight and other to deploy units faster???

The game commences with units deployed for battle, so we do not have march formations. Flank marches can be conducted off the playable battlefield area and arrive in battle formation.

And a little observation... is possible capture artillery??? or you only can destroy it??? ummm i think in wargames where even you can kill the artillery crews but enemy can recrew them... to prevent this you have spike order to negate guns to enemy... i ask this because i see arty units with no soldiers, only the guns... i supose this means arty units only have 2 status, OK or destroyed... maybe a low crew effect???

It is possible to capture and re-use guns in FOG Renaissance but it has side-effects on the game that has caused many players to request that guns be simply destroyed when captured. At present this is how it is in Pike and Shot, but we may be open to persuasion!

All units are subject to degradation from losses as well as morale. Gun crews are no exception. We are currently not displaying the crews because the unit graphics system does not lend itself to depicting very small numbers of men.

[rbodleyscott]

All the unit definitions are held in a spreadsheet, from which the game reads off the units' data when the scenario is started. The unit definitions can be edited as you wish, using any combination of the pre-defined capabilities, and additional units can be added. Obviously in Multiplayer games, both sides must be using the same definitions.

Very nice, really mod friendly!

I imagine there will be some internal checking system to avoid problems with different files in multiplayer games...

Yes, this is all handled by the Slitherine PBEM++ multiplayer system.

[stockwellpete]

This is such great news that this fascinating period of history is going to be opened up now.

[Scutarii]

Thanks for the reply.

Well, i understand that you remove armor from the original game... well glad see i understand it bad, in cavalry is a good point to made even more obsolete pistol(shooting).

Ummm i dont know how is the game but maybe with lack of march formations you reduce the "map play area" maybe is necesary do this because maps are small, not a great problem in this situations.

Guns... is allways a problem in wargames, first many gun units only have "number of guns" and avoid the crew part (i never like this because you dont need a direct hit over a gun to neutralize it and well, shoot units can eliminated a gun unit and destroy 0 guns) and appear later the "WTF i do with that gun unit???" assault it???, damage it only shooting??? and when i neutralized it... what i do??? is better spike the guns or destroy them??? or i can leave an unit with them and use the gun unit to create a "strong point"??? of course simple leave the gun unit alone is something i dont like a lot, not the first time i see how AI or a human player recrew the unit in my soft ass hehehe.

Maybe you can use an alternate rule, when you start a scen you select if you want destroy gun units or a capture system.

Ummm mods... maybe you are going to use like many wargames i see in last years where you have a "custom" folder, game load custom files over stock but in multiplayer ignore the custom files... even more you can have a "multiplayer custom" folder where players can load the mod they want use on their multi games.

Thanks for the reply, waiting know more about game.

[TheGrayMouser]

Hi RBS, I hope armour isnt too toned down, I wasnt a big believer in FOGAM v 2's changes handling of armour, which appeared to be added to enhance competitive gameplay for certain armies line ups

I understand why formations changes arnt in the game, however, is there any concept of a units frontage? ie, do big battaions potentially get an advantage in melee vs smaller ones?

(basically what I'm getting at are overlaps somehow incorporated?)

BTW I love the choice in graphics for the units, I have always enjoyed the period prints of battles and deployed units, plus it eally matches the scale of the terrain in a way that more detailed, but obviously larger "minis" can not.
My only critique from such early alpha?? shots are the cavalry units are kinda hard to distinguish from infantry without pikes..

cheers!

[thenewromance]

I'm really happy with this announcement! Just last week, I had a look at the web to see whether there are any Thirty Years War videogames. Turns out the answer is "no", which really surprised me. The few boardgames that exist seemed super-hardcore to me. As such, I'm really looking forward to Pike & Shot!

[rbodleyscott]

Hi RBS, I hope armour isnt too toned down, I wasnt a big believer in FOGAM v 2's changes handling of armour, which appeared to be added to enhance competitive gameplay for certain armies line ups

Armour advantage is effectively a +16% close combat modifier.This is plenty enough to decide the issue most of the time if everything else is equal.

I understand why formations changes arnt in the game, however, is there any concept of a units frontage? ie, do big battaions potentially get an advantage in melee vs smaller ones?

In terms of battalion-sized units, the main difference is that the larger units are in greater depth, so still fight at full effect even if they have suffered losses. Early tercios and pike keils get an additional depth bonus for the pikes.
Units that are smaller than battalion-sized don't get overlapped by battalion-sized units in impact combat but do in melee. In addition certain capabilities, such as heavy weapon and infantry swordsmen capability, convey an overlap bonus against smaller units. (Note: As pretty much everyone carries a sword, only expert swordsmen get the swordsmen capability).

Believe me, you would not want to take on a Landsknecht keil with a single Spanish colonela. (Italian Wars).

Units fighting multiple enemies suffer a negative strength modifier against each one.

However, chequerboard formations work because units cannot turn to attack the unit to their right-front (for example) if they have an enemy unit facing them within 2 tiles directly to their front.

[TheGrayMouser]

Thanks for the reply RBS, everthing sounds fantastic, the only other obvious ? now is WHEN!

[Schweinewitz]

Wow, this came completely unexpected! Great news! Definitely looking forward to this!

10 historical scenarios doesn't sound much but if the editor is powerful enough I'm more than ok with this.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Some questions:

Which terrain types will be in the game?

Will there be different terrain graphics (and correspondent values) for the various seasons?

How many nations/factions (and which ones exactly) are scheduled for the first release of the series?

Do the units have historical correct names (regiment names) or just generic ones ('Veteran Pike and Shot"); can they be named/renamed in the editor?

Can you give us a list of the 20 troop-types?
________________________________________________________________________________________


Thanks in advance.

[Navaronegun]

Although the game uses Slitherine's STUB engine, which is used for BA, the combat representation and mechanics are completely different from BA. So:

500 men in a standard pike and shot unit in the later TYW and ECW.

Units are larger in the early TYW with both sides using 1,000 strong pike and shot battalions and the Catholic League using 2,000 strong ones until after Breitenfeld.

Cavalry units vary from 200 to 400 men.

I am very pleased with the unit scale, RBS, allowing an operational-tactical representation of this unexplored era, rather than the usual strict tactical.

What scale are you utilizing for terrain and time?

Nav

[rbodleyscott]

Which terrain types will be in the game?

The quick answer is all the usual types.

Functionally terrain tiles are rated according to the amount of disorder they cause to various formations, movement rates of various troops through them (if they are passable at all), the amount of cover they give, whether units can be concealed in them. Examples are Woods, Rough terrain, Marsh, Difficult Slopes, small streams, large streams, deep streams, rivers etc. etc. From a modding point of view these ratings can all be altered in the terrain.txt file and new terrain types can be added if desired.

In addition various objects have terrain effects, act as obstacles and have defensive value: such as hedges, low walls, high walls, light (field) fortifications, medium (field) fortifications, and heavy (stone) fortifications.

Also height differentials convey close combat bonuses.

Will there be different terrain graphics (and correspondent values) for the various seasons?

Not at present, but there will be different terrain tile and object sets for Germany, England and Italy.

Can completely new maps be designed with the editor (like in FOG)?

Yes

How many nations/factions (and which ones exactly) are scheduled for the first release of the series?

In the Thirty Years war campaign, factions include Bohemians, Holy Roman Empire/Catholic League, German Protestants, Danish, Swedish, Spanish, French.
The army lists for stand-alone games include one or more lists for each of these at different stages of the war.
Other peripheral factions may also be added, but I cannot confirm this at this stage.

Do the units have historical correct names (regiment names) or just generic ones ('Veteran Pike and Shot"); can they be named/renamed in the editor?

Generic. You can rename them in the squads file and in the text files that are displayed in the UI, but the new name will apply to all units of the same type. So essentially you can only have a different name for each regiment by adding them as separate units to the unit definitions spreadsheet - which you certainly can do.

Can you give us a list of the 20 troop-types?

Actually there are 21, although some of the more exotic types are not used in the initially available campaigns.

Heavy Foot: Foot troops who fight in close formation. These include most pikemen and billmen.
Determined Foot: Heavy foot noted for their exceptional speed of advance, such as Swiss pikemen.
Medium Foot: Foot troops fighting in looser formation than heavy foot and hence better suited than heavy foot to fighting in rough terrain. They are often principally reliant on missile weapons. When not mixed with pikes – see below - they are very vulnerable to a mounted charge if caught in open ground. Medium foot cannot have pike capability.
Mixed Foot: Units with some Heavy Foot and some Medium Foot. Most pike and shot.
Light Foot: Foot troops who fight in a dispersed formation with missile weapons. They are best at harassing enemy from a distance and working in difficult terrain.
Commanded Shot: These are small units of detached shot who have been assigned to assist their side’s mounted troops against enemy mounted troops. They are treated as light foot except that they become “Protected” (which boosts their resistance to enemy cavalry) if they have unbroken friendly non-light mounted troops in an adjacent map square (not including the three squares to the commanded shot’s “rear”).
Warriors: Tribal or other close combat foot not part of the European or Chinese tactical systems, They are often fiercer but less disciplined than European or Chinese troops. They are very vulnerable to a mounted charge in open ground.
Mob: Untrained rabble, usually of low morale, fighting as a disorganised mass. They may be equipped with only peasant weapons or may have been hastily equipped with proper weaponry but not trained to use it effectively.
Gendarmes: Usually drawn from a gentry skilled in horsemanship, these are armoured cavalry who rely on a fierce charge at the gallop with lance. They usually fight in less depth than other mounted troops, and can get carried away in the pursuit of defeated enemy.
Cavaliers: Usually drawn from a gentry skilled in horsemanship, these are cavalry who rely on a fierce charge sometimes at the gallop. They usually fight in less depth than other mounted troops, and can get carried away in the pursuit of defeated enemy. Examples: Royalist horse of the English Civil Wars.
Determined Horse: Disciplined cavalry in shallow close order formations who mostly charge at the trot in a controlled manner. Examples: Swedish 30 Years War cavalry and Cromwell’s Ironsides.
Horse: Cavalry who ride in close deep formations and charge at the trot. They include German men-at-arms and reiters trained to use the caracole.
Light Horse: Lightly equipped horsemen specialising in skirmishing, usually with missile weapons.
Cavalry: Most other non-light mounted troops fall into this category. Examples: Hungarian Szeklers, Polish pancerni, Ottoman sipahis,
Camelry: Camel-mounted troops. They are treated as Cavalry, but they have less difficulty with movement over sand. Camelry disorder horses.
Dragoons: Infantry mounted on cheap horses who usually dismount to fight on foot in support of cavalry wings in battle.
Elephants: Indian elephants, whose strength is breaking into solid lines of enemy troops. Elephants disorder horses.
Light Artillery Small cannon such as organ guns, falconets or galloper guns and drakes and also eastern rocket artillery.
Medium Artillery: Demi-culverins, quarter-cannon, sakers and falcons.
Heavy Artillery: Heavy guns such as full cannon, demi-cannon and culverins or bombards.
Ships: Warships