Beta tester's battle style

[Morris]

I do wonder what would have happened if Hitler had disavowed Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour and offered to ally with the US against Japan . Or at least stood back and said "Nothing to do with me". I don't see how the US could have declared war on Germany because it had been attacked by Japan .

However Hitler did , US will surely join the war to against Germany by some kind of excuses ( maybe somemore US ship or DD sunk by U-boat ).

But If Hitler just ask Japan to Dow USSR in return Germany Dow USA , It would be quite different ! It means there would be no Siberian reinforcement in Typhone mission !
If Moscow fall , god knows what would happen !

[Cybvep]

Japan didn't want war with the USSR in 1941. They were already overstretched, last thing they needed was an another front.

I also believe that Roosevelt would find some excuse to DOW Germany, but it would most likely take some time, so the USA would probably enter the war with Germany a bit later.

[Morris]

Russia was not prepared for war in 1941 in my opinion. The main reason for the forward deployment of Russian forces was the Russian doctrine. It was an offensive doctrine meaning that wars are supposed to be fought on your enemy's territory, not your own territory.

Russia got a big bloody nose in the Finnish winter war. They realized then that their army was not well suited for modern warfare so they started to reorganize their army. In June 1941 the reorganization still had a long time to go. In 1942 I think you would have seen a quite different Red Army.

To make matters even worse the Russian army had to deal with Stalin's purges where a big percentage of the officers were killed.

Stalin was buying time with Hitler by being "cordial" so Russia could strike in 1942. They agreed to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact the get territory back. After that the Russians seemed friendly with the Germans. Stalin ignored reports of German soldiers massing near the Russian border. Stalin didn't want to provoke the Germans into attacking by mobilizing. He knew that the Russian mobilization dragged them into war with Germany in WW1.

Stalin was so shocked when he heard the Germans had attacked on June 1941 that he fled to his datcha and was out of communication for one week. When they finally reached him Stalin was convinced they were there to arrest him for allowing the Germans to invade. So Stalin panicked in June 1941. He didn't anticipate they would attack so late in 1941.

So it doesn't make sense to me that Russia laid a trap for Germany and were waiting for them to invade. If that had been true then they would surely not have been in their forward positions. They would instead have fallen back like we always do with the Russians in GS.

I don't think for a second that Russia actually were about to attack Germany in 1941. If that would have been the matter they would have attacked in May 1941 when the Germans were fighting in Yugoslavia and Greece. They could have used that as an excuse to save their Serbian brothers from German aggressors. No, Russia were not prepared to fight in 1941. They were gearing up to fight in 1942 and hoped Germany didn't have time to look to the east in 1941.

Lot's of valuable information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deep_battle

I always learned a lot from Borger ! Thank you !

Actually I agree some of Borger's point & some of Kragdob 's . I think it should be like this :

1 Russia prepared to attack Germany whenever they are ready .
2 In 1941 , USSR is in busy preparing for the attack but still long way to be ready .
3 USSR signed the Molotov agreement with the Third Reich to buy some time (as long as possible)
4 according to the Russian's standard , Hitler should also quite not be ready to invade Russia .(but Hitler launched Babarrosa when Russians believed Hitler was not ready)
5 According to the USSR's plan , In 1942 they will have 25000 tanks & 6000 aircrafts & then Germany would still have around 3600-5000 tanks & 2800-4000 aircrafts .They will have enough advantage to attack .
6 Regarding to Lvov , there were alot of Tacs destroyed by the Babarosa's first day's air raid on the airport ! No one use Tacs to defense ! hehehe

[Morris]

I don't think for a second that Russia actually were about to attack Germany in 1941.

Strategically, it would have been even better to attack in 1940, while Germany was still fighting in France. Of course, the Red Army was even less prepared for war in 1940 than in 1941, but few expected that France would fall so quickly, either. A two-front war was Germany's biggest nightmare. That's one of the reasons why they favoured quick, decisive strikes. A prolonged German-French struggle would have been perfect for Stalin. The funny thing is that you can see this in many WWII strategy games as well - if Germany gets bogged down in France, it's the end. For this reason, France is usually unrealistically nerfed, because most devs want it fall quickly in order not to disrupt balance. Unfortunately, the players realise this and they expect France to be a pushover, while the RL Germans expected the opposite. In CEAW context, this means that if the Axis player fails in France, he/she usually quits the game.

To attack the Third Reich is a huge complicate mission . It has to take long time to plan & prepare . But France campaign was an accident which no one had ever thought of it including Germans themselves . Game is quite different from real war !

[Morris]

Japan didn't want war with the USSR in 1941. They were already overstretched, last thing they needed was an another front.

I also believe that Roosevelt would find some excuse to DOW Germany, but it would most likely take some time, so the USA would probably enter the war with Germany a bit later.

No matter Japan wanted or not , If Germany requested them to obey the Axis agreement & hold the responsibility ,They would have to do it , Although maybe Japan dared not to attack USSR in fareast very soon , but at least Stalin would not be able to transfer the Siberian troops to Moscow front at that key period !

[Plaid]

There was not that many troops transfered to German front from the Far East. Many of them were stationed in the east all the time until 1945.
Most of reserve shock troops used in 1941 winter offensive were newly created, not redeployed from somewhere.

[Cybvep]

No matter Japan wanted or not , If Germany requested them to obey the Axis agreement & hold the responsibility ,They would have to do it

No, they wouldn't have to do it. Because of the distance between the two nations, it was a paper alliance and if either nation wanted to ignore a specific request, this could be easily done. Japan didn't even inform Germany about the Pearl Harbour attack before it actually happened. They did what they thought suited their interests best, it's simple as that. They didn't want to attack the USSR, so they wouldn't do it. The only real German-Japanese cooperation took place during the late-war period, when the two nations traded strategic resources by transporting them in... u-boats. There are even some conspiracy theories about this .

[Morris]

No matter Japan wanted or not , If Germany requested them to obey the Axis agreement & hold the responsibility ,They would have to do it

No, they wouldn't have to do it. Because of the distance between the two nations, it was a paper alliance and if either nation wanted to ignore a specific request, this could be easily done. Japan didn't even inform Germany about the Pearl Harbour attack before it actually happened. They did what they thought suited their interests best, it's simple as that. They didn't want to attack the USSR, so they wouldn't do it. The only real German-Japanese cooperation took place during the late-war period, when the two nations traded strategic resources by transporting them in... u-boats. There are even some conspiracy theories about this .

Sorry ,I can't agree with you . At least Japan can't refuse to do it . It was Japan's responsibility . even if Japan just would not sign the agreement with USSR ! & that would be enough to help Germans in winter of 1941 .

[Morris]

There was not that many troops transfered to German front from the Far East. Many of them were stationed in the east all the time until 1945.
Most of reserve shock troops used in 1941 winter offensive were newly created, not redeployed from somewhere.

20 divisions were not many ? Especially at the key moment!

[Plaid]

20 divisions were not many ? Especially at the key moment!

If we look at force charts, soviet military presence on the Far East (where Japanesse agression was possible) was roughly the same during whole war, and we can't say about 20 divisions transfered from there. Actually some troops were transfered from Far East aswell, but mostly if was fresh created in Urals and Syberia divisions.





(sorry for unclean headers, editted them myself)

[Morris]

20 divisions were not many ? Especially at the key moment!

If we look at force charts, soviet military presence on the Far East (where Japanesse agression was possible) was roughly the same during whole war, and we can't say about 20 divisions transfered from there. Actually some troops were transfered from Far East aswell, but mostly if was fresh created in Urals and Syberia divisions.





(sorry for unclean headers, editted them myself)

Hi Plaid , Thank you verymuch for your information ! But I can't draw your conclusion from the data you provided .
Anyway , The Siberian troops were the troops with severe winter eqipments & be able to launch counter attack under -40 degree centigrade . As we know that in 1941 winter , Russian were also not well prepared for so low temprature ,they were not strong enough to make a counterattack without the help from the Siberian troops who were always well prepared for severe winter .

[Cybvep]

I think that what Plaid is trying to say is that these Siberian divisions are mostly mythical. Most of the troops that arrived served in divisions that were created after the war started.

[Morris]

I think that what Plaid is trying to say is that these Siberian divisions are mostly mythical. Most of the troops that arrived served in divisions that were created after the war started.

Thanks for your explaination ! But I do not agree with this point . I will try to check out the history material & provide the proof soon .

[Kragdob]

I think that what Plaid is trying to say is that these Siberian divisions are mostly mythical. Most of the troops that arrived served in divisions that were created after the war started.

Thanks for your explaination ! But I do not agree with this point . I will try to check out the history material & provide the proof soon .

This also our conclusion when we created games on battle of Moscow in 1941. Siberia created new troops but send them West as soon as they are created. Operations Typhoon was made without any special reinforcements when German offensive exhausted its power.

For the discussion if USSR was ready for war or not - or actually if it wanted to start the war in 1941 or later (regardless of the success chances of such attack):
The setup of the Red Army in 1941 clearly indicates offensive actions planned. All forces were concentrated close to borders, most of them assault ones - if war was planned for 1942 then setup would have been much different, definitely not 3 millions of soldiers in field positions on the borders - how much effort would have been needed to support this during winter?. This is why I do believe that Stalin wanted to attack in 1941. Of course many second line units were in different stage of organization but this is normal. 5+ million army does not wait for attack untill every unit is ready - some are ready and some (even more) are organizing. I think Stalin did believe that Hitler is going to wait till 1942 and this is why USSR was so shocked by German assault.

[Morris]

I think that what Plaid is trying to say is that these Siberian divisions are mostly mythical. Most of the troops that arrived served in divisions that were created after the war started.

Thanks for your explaination ! But I do not agree with this point . I will try to check out the history material & provide the proof soon .

This also our conclusion when we created games on battle of Moscow in 1941. Siberia created new troops but send them West as soon as they are created. Operations Typhoon was made without any special reinforcements when German offensive exhausted its power.

For the discussion if USSR was ready for war or not - or actually if it wanted to start the war in 1941 or later (regardless of the success chances of such attack):
The setup of the Red Army in 1941 clearly indicates offensive actions planned. All forces were concentrated close to borders, most of them assault ones - if war was planned for 1942 then setup would have been much different, definitely not 3 millions of soldiers in field positions on the borders - how much effort would have been needed to support this during winter?. This is why I do believe that Stalin wanted to attack in 1941. Of course many second line units were in different stage of organization but this is normal. 5+ million army does not wait for attack untill every unit is ready - some are ready and some (even more) are organizing. I think Stalin did believe that Hitler is going to wait till 1942 and this is why USSR was so shocked by German assault.

yes , I basically agree with you especially the last sentence "I think Stalin did believe that Hitler is going to wait till 1942 and this is why USSR was so shocked by German assault" . The offence deployment could not accomplish the defence mission .