Thanks for the example it helps figure out the issues. There is a lot os subtlety in these things that are not at frist apparent. If you read Bruce's review he is now feeling that shooting is about right as he has got through the barriers of seeing how to counter some of it, but its a big mindset shift from our old world.
You won't be surprised to hear that we've tried things like this many times and simulated them a few thousand times each to get the overall results with average luck and the spread. Nonetheless I'll run that one on the table just to get a feel for it as best I can.
I would also add that if some feel it is too good and others not thern part of the fun of course is playing for a few years and then tweaking it so we can all go back an review all the armies - DBM 1 1.1 2 3 3.1 have all re-invigorated to a degree beacuse of this - which of these was "correct" is to a degree a mute point. We shouldn;t get too hung up about fine detials of balance as tweaking this is and responding to it is all part of the fun we all have.
So I will give it a go - a few comments inserted in the meantime.
I do not have a lot of time to reply until this evening however there are some things that come to mind immediately:
An example, my armoured Dailami, BG's of 6 three deep, four BG's side by side:
A large number of points in a small space. This was faced off by three Ottoman LF and a LH working their flank.
So 3 x 5s needed to force a test on any of them, but a -1 automatically if you do due to 6 BG size which mnakes them more mobile but more vlnerable to fire - a choice of course. End one is understandably vulnerable. No friendly Cv or LH to support and worry the skirmishers - again a tactical choice.
1) My line was outflanked, a simple count of relative points means I could never get as long a line as the skirmishers
Indeed but the skirmishers are not cheap in FOG - especially if mounted. My Briton warriors are 7 and the Ottoman LH is 8 and the foot 5. Of course your dialmai are rather more expensive and good.
2) There is no withdrawing from the line to bolster. Breaking the line means concentrated shooting on those that remain.
You can do this by advancing the ones that are in good shape and bringing the others back up once recovered. I often do that.
3) Charging the skirnishers to relieve the shooting breaks up the line due to VMD and the BG moving the furthest is the victim of concentrated shooting by the returning skirmishers next move.
Only if they roll up - otherwise the rest of the line advances and shields them. If you were wary of charging them then this is the biggest tactical mindshift needed. You really have to be prepared to drive them away and support with others. There is a 1 in 3 chance they are exposed for 1 round, a 1 in 3 they end up behind. This is quite carefully set up to dsitrupt but only soemtimes negatively. If in doubt charge with more than 1.
4) a little angling by the skirmishers is easily achieved and concentrates fire on one BG despite them Dailami being shoulder to shoulder.
That is intentional and the only way you can simulate Huns, Parthians and Mongols properly.
5) The speed of play in FoG is great - more bounds of shooting, more likelihood of a good dice result.
And more rounds to chase them off table....its a fine balance to get right.
6) A general is needed to do the bolstering, he is not avaliable elsewhere (keep on adding the points cost expended to counter these skirmisher)
That's his job. 1 general for 4 Armoured BGs is quite normal. Typcially 12-15 BGs and 3-4 generals.
7) Once disrupted by shooting the additional -1 means it is harder to bolster and easier to drop to fragmented.
Remember this is not 1 BG on one BG. A single skirmisher or even two can be dealt with, but add a third or fourth and one general cannot get around and bolster fast enough.
Yes this is a compounding effect and one thing we can easily use to calibrate the shooting effect down with if need be. If we do feel its too strong we can drop the -s for shooting which has quite a big effect. Several parts of the rules have in built calibration options stored inthe cupboard for use if needed........
9) Give it a try Simon, you have my list. Set up the four Dailami with a TC, two wide, against three sixes of LF and a four of LH. Allow one flank to be open for manouvre. This was the real scenario on one part of the battlefield. The open flank was in fact a steep hill, relatively easy going for the LH (yes not LF) to do the flanking.
Will do and report back.
My gut feel is that this is tactical and mindset shift issues, not calibration. We have all got used to Sp adn Bd being invulnerable to mass skirmishers as all they do in DBM is slow you down. But that doesn't make it reality in any way.
If troops are exposed to mass skirmishing without any means to protect themselves then they should be "at risk". This certainly is the intent. Having brought skirmishing and fire alive again we need to give it some success in situations where it did succeed. I can't remember the battle but I recall dsicussing a Roman battle where mass javelin fire did for the legionaries because they were isolated and exposed. The huns pounded the visisgoths until parts of their line broke apart and then charged them to break them.
Honestly, it sounds like what you really needed were some of your own LH or Cv to provide protection to the attack. Also were you within 6MU of the table edge or not? If so the end one will be vulnerable and gain this is intentional to avoid falnks getting to blocked. With these troops you rally want to attack inside the 6 MU outer boundary. Thsi again is deliberate yo generate issues around the wings. Otherwise foot troops will just block flanks very easily.
More anon
Si
Remember this is not 1 BG on one BG. A single skirmisher or even two can be dealt with, but add a third or fourth and one general cannot get around and bolster fast enough.
