Swedish troop issues

[gibby]

Its an interesting topic.
I guess my feel is that the rules are about right especially in period and we want to be really careful about any changes we may make that would alter this.

I have not used Swedes so cannot comment on the mentality or style of their play. I do know however that you have to be very wary of their powerful impact. So playing them you have to be sneaky enough to give up a couple of units that you know will get mullered, outnumber them in the firefights on the wings and support with your horse and outflank them.

However if the perceived problem is them not closing, is that solved by making Shock foot take a test not to advance to charge range because that was tactical doctrine. Maybe the reason Swedes don't win anything is because they are being used ahistorical.

cheers
Jim

[Three]

.... is that solved by making Shock foot take a test not to advance to charge range because that was tactical doctrine. Maybe the reason Swedes don't win anything is because they are being used ahistorical.

cheers
Jim

I rather like that idea, if it included the usual exclusions about defending field fortifications/obstacles and if against mounted etc

[nikgaukroger]

However if the perceived problem is them not closing, is that solved by making Shock foot take a test not to advance to charge range because that was tactical doctrine. Maybe the reason Swedes don't win anything is because they are being used ahistorical.

cheers
Jim

If you were going to do this you'd have to restrict the test to BGs that were already in shooting range otherwise it'd be silly. Not sure it actually sits well with all Shock foot either to be honest.

[gibby]

Agree about the already in shooting range bit.....
Don't see the suggestion as any worse than others however maybe restrict it to shock salvo foot then.

cheers
Jim

[batesmotel]

What would happen if the treatment as armoured for the Swedish formation was retained but salvo foot were only allowed to shoot at effective range, but then with full effect for two ranks as for normal muskets. It would seem that this would leave Swedish foot less vulnerable as they close but give them a strong incentive to close to effective range and then either shoot or charge. I think this would encourage historical Swedish behavior.

Chris

[hazelbark]

I just saw this thread. On the swedish brigade issue, honestly had never encountered it. I always find the swedes outnumbered and repeatedly the outside swedish brigade is taking fire from 2-3 enemy units. it I find often gets shot to pieces. Once that situation starts to develop the Swedes don't want to shoot, they need to close, because eventually flanks and all of that. So i haven't really encountered this. Plus even a disordered 1 base down swedeish brigade probalby wants to hit an enemy at double POA. The are virtually assured to win the impact and maybe send their foe to frag'd.

So I would be very limited in any modifications I would propose as I don't see the situation tremendously wrong.

Where I have always found the swedish brigade is they get the salvo effect if they have an overlapped base getting hit in a furutre imapct. But that is just one of those things in the rules.

Now the regimental gun salvo commanded shot is just crazy in game terms. That is what I would fix then the swedish brigade will be fine as it stands.

[bahdahbum]

Maybe the reason Swedes don't win anything is because they are being used ahistorical.

I think the swedes win some games ( I did ) . But you have to us them with some care either going in agressively or waiting for the ennemy to come to you while you win on the flanks .All dependng on terrain, initiative and the ennemy . And of course a bit of good luck

As the swedes go in, yes they do have an advantage when firing at "long" range . But usually the oppoent then moves within 3 MU ( if my memory is right about firing range ) and then is better than the swedish because he has at least 4 or 5 firing dice vs 2 or 3 if attached artillery and hits at 4-5-6 . The swedes have no other options than ....charge or go into a firing competition they should loose . Quite often I found myself with 4 or 5 real infantry battlegroups vs 8-12 infantry battle groups ( even 20 ....).. It is a flaw in the swedish army and your opponent should play on it and not start to cry ...oh no ...not those damned swedes again ...they are unstopable..they are too strongh ...too superior...too armored ...too salvo ...but never you will hear too many !

So please do not change the rules for swedish brigades .

About the detached foot with artillery , I know it is very strongh . I do not know if there is a hisorical reason for the attached gun . If yes, you can only accept it and play . And never forget as I already wrote in another thread ....they are costly, very costly but so brittle . 1 dead and poof ...your unit is gone ....Try advancing with such a unit if in front you have enough muskets to try 4-5 shots at you ...you pray or stay away

[grahambriggs]

IMO currently there is an incentive for Swedish brigades to stand off at long range and engage in a fire fight rather than close and charge in (which is what we want the incentive to be) - I believe this is due to them counting as Armoured at long range to other firearms who then need a 5 to hit whereas the Swedes will need a 4 against other pike & shot types.

I'd change the brigade rules and remove the counting as armoured at long range part and assume any benefit of the pikemen being armoured and leading are abstracted into the 7th base the formation gets (which itself is a significant benefit).

This might just be a handy trap for the unwary. Are the Swedes better off hanging back to minimise casualties or would they be better off getting stuck in ASAP to get the impact POAs? In terms of "think what the opponent would like you to do and don't do that" perhaps the opponent would like the Swedish foot to be cautious?

[bahdahbum]

I'd change the brigade rules and remove the counting as armoured at long range part and assume any benefit of the pikemen being armoured and leading are abstracted into the 7th base the formation gets (which itself is a significant benefit).

So you would have to pay for a special brigade and pay for base ....then paying the special swedish brigade 4 points becomes useless

[nikgaukroger]

I'd change the brigade rules and remove the counting as armoured at long range part and assume any benefit of the pikemen being armoured and leading are abstracted into the 7th base the formation gets (which itself is a significant benefit).

So you would have to pay for a special brigade and pay for base ....then paying the special swedish brigade 4 points becomes useless

Certainly does not. The marginal benefit of the 7th base exceeds to cost of that base due to the benefits it brings - things like 3 hits to force a CT and that the BG can lose 2 pike bases before it loses a shot base; damned good value for 4 points IMO.

[bahdahbum]

But you have also to pay that 7th base . That's why I say it becomes costly for no big advantage . If you reduce the efficiency of the swedish brigade, reduce the cost as it will give no advantage , cost should be 0 . You pay for a 7th base and you got what comes with it . The swedish brigade brings nothing except the possibility to have a 7th base that you already must pay ...4 points is excessive for such a thing . Do the tercios or keil have to pay for being tercios and keils and so have flank and rear advantages ? the answer is NO . So why is the swedish brigade system different ? Why shuld you have to pay in order to enable you to have 7 bases that brings nothing real special if other special formations - and their "small" advantages are for free ?

[kevinj]

I'm with Bahdahbim here, i think that the Swedish brigade is ok as it is. It has some advantages but they don't seem to have led to any dominance by Swedish armies and it's also worth noting that the extra base, while it does give the benefits Nik mentions, doesn't add to the autobreak level of the BG.

I still think that the anomaly in the Sedish list that needs fixing is the commanded shot.

[quackstheking]

I agree fully with Kevin. Commanded shot that is also with a regimental gun should be changed to musket only with no regimental gun as per all other 30yw armies.

Don

[timmy1]

If we were seeing Swedish armies as being better than their peers I could see the point of changing the CS Salvo / RG. However as we do not see them sweeping the board in either Open or Themed comps I am not sure whay we want to make them worse.

[madaxeman]

If we were seeing Swedish armies as being better than their peers I could see the point of changing the CS Salvo / RG. However as we do not see them sweeping the board in either Open or Themed comps I am not sure whay we want to make them worse.

I think there are 2 separate issues here.

Commanded Salvo Shotte with Regimental Gunnes have 2 problems. Firstly, they are "too good" and appear to need toning down. Secondly they are most effective when used in an non-historical manner, which is a lesser issue perhaps, but still something which it is worth looking at. Changing them to normal Shotte without Reggie Gunnes is may be a shame, as they clearly did have Gunnnes, but it does seem to address both these issues.

For Swedish Brigades, I don't sense any real consensus that they are "too good" - my impression is that their high cost seems to balance out their effectiveness in combat. However they do seem to be highly effective when used in an unhistorical manner, i.e. standing off and engaging in a firefight.

Given that "Swedish Brigades closing quickly into combat" are one of the archetypal troop types of the period, to such an extent that a number of rules mechanics and troop type classifications appear to have been created specifically to cater for and encourage this exact battlefield behaviour in the game, if "closing swiftly to combat" still isn't the best way to use Swedish Brigades, I for one still think it warrants revisiting some aspects of the rules as they currently apply to Swedish Brigades to better encourage and reward Swedish players to recreate their troops historical behaviour on the tabletop.

[timmy1]

Tim

Agree with you completely that changes should be made to make the use of Swedes more historical. Not sure that what has been discussed will all achieve that.

[Three]

The best answer imo for the Commanded Shot with Reg Gun issue has been suggested above already - make it a special campaign option and must include Gustavus as GC.

As for the rest, I think we are starting to re-hash some earlier points. I am firmly in the camp to maintain the status quo. I really like the way Swedes work just now, and am of the opinion that if you start tweaking to force a perception of more historical use then you have to do the same with other aspects, eg deploying artillery to target horse.

[bahdahbum]

The best answer imo for the Commanded Shot with Reg Gun issue has been suggested above already - make it a special campaign option and must include Gustavus as GC.

Why not .

As for the status quo for swedish brigades , I thnik it is the "best" solution for now . The swedish army was an agressive one . And in FOGR it works to some extend enven if not because the swedish goes to the assault but because his opponent closes the firing range and so the swedish having lost the armoured benefit having 2 dice ( or 3 if attached shot ) vs 4 or 5 dice during the firing sequence, well the swedish has to close in so has to attack or risk die shooting ....

Now, except in 2 out of my 10 games with swedes, I was always on the assault and it worked except 2 times . So 2 in defence, 8 on assault and out of the 8 2 lost . When I was on defence it was vs another swedish army and once against a spanish Carolus V army . I waited for his keils to come and tried shoting them down ...it worked but not vs the keils or tercios . I managed to avoid them because my opponent started a strange dance in front of my guns ..going to the left, stopping. going to the right. stopping .. I still wonder wht he wanted to do I took his army by destroying small units and taking his artillery and camp .