prestige-39 campaign

[impar]

Nah. Thats not the idea.
Its to use the best available units, even those that are not in the "good" family tree, and dont use elites.
If changing families when upgrading, disband to get prestige back and then upgrade.
Try it.

But most of the best units are in the best families anyway, so it's not a huge benefit imho.

Of course the best units are in the best families, thats why they are the best families. No?
Sometimes though, the best unit through a series of scenarios in a determined class is not in the best family tree.
In the original PzC campaign, the Do217 was the best strategic bomber for a series of scenarios, not the contemporany "best-family" He111. Was it ever used?
The Fw190A was also outside of the optimal path (Bf109 and then Me262).
If you kept in the artillery towed family there was not much use for the Sturmpanzer in Poland and Norway.
The tank class also had at least three families jumps, PzI to PzIV and then to Tiger or Panther.

Even the infantry class with the "best family" Pionieres had some problems related to the transport. Upgrade elite reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Sure, keep the experience and pay 200P per unit.
Upgrade regular reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Nope. Disband them, get 393P, acquire Pionieres with 250, pay 493P, total cost 100P per unit.
Multiply that 100P difference for the 5-6 infantry units you have and you notice its handy to have that prestige. Also, there was no prestige spent on elite reinforcements.

Started doing this in Rommel difficulty level and apart from the amazingly brutal-hard East USA air battle the rest of the scenarios were attainable.

Do note that the "best family" may be subjective, but the gist is the same regardless of which family is best.

[Aloo]

This is the reason why I'd like incremental replenishing of units. You could micro to 9 with elite replacements and then use normal for the 10th.
Probably a bit too much microing for the casual player though.

But this shouldn't be a problem - the defaults should stay as they are: click for full replacements. Only add an option to ctr+click or alt+click to add a single replacement, the same way as you can view full combat predictions with ctrl + click but most casual players don't use it.

[impar]

Above quote should be Fimcontes, not my.

[Fimconte]

Of course the best units are in the best families, thats why they are the best families. No?
Sometimes though, the best unit through a series of scenarios in a determined class is not in the best family tree.
In the original PzC campaign, the Do217 was the best strategic bomber for a series of scenarios, not the contemporany "best-family" He111. Was it ever used?

Depends on the prestige and what kind of campaign you're going for obviously.
I did use Do217s in one of my (defensive) campaigns, but indeed most of the time I used Ju88 until He177.

I also think that Strategic Bombers and Artillery take considerably less damage than other units, so you can afford to use elite replacements and upgrading from Ju88s->He177s.

And anyway, at most I've had four strategic bombers, that's 2340 prestige for a full upgrade.
Which isn't all that much if you've been saving up for it the entire war (for that and the Tiger I/TigerII upgrades).

The Fw190A was also outside of the optimal path (Bf109 and then Me262).

Fw190A is useful if you're going for the battle for Germany endings, starting in Italy and beyond where you face advanced British and American planes.
Although if your BF109s are extremely experienced and overstrength you didn't need to upgrade them.

If you kept in the artillery towed family there was not much use for the Sturmpanzer in Poland and Norway.
The tank class also had at least three families jumps, PzI to PzIV and then to Tiger or Panther.

Personally I've never liked self-propelled artillery, with the exception of Wurfrahmen (only with +1 range heroes).

Well, if anyone is upgrading PzI/IIs into PzIV then that's obviously a mistake. The two scenarios (Poland/Norway) don't give you nearly enough experience for it to be worth it.
So it's really just one (two) family jump from PzIV->TigerI (->TigerII/Maus).
And again, if you save for it it's not a huge issue.

Even the infantry class with the "best family" Pionieres had some problems related to the transport. Upgrade elite reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Sure, keep the experience and pay 200P per unit.
Upgrade regular reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Nope. Disband them, get 393P, acquire Pionieres with 250, pay 493P, total cost 100P per unit.
Multiply that 100P difference for the 5-6 infantry units you have and you notice its handy to have that prestige. Also, there was no prestige spent on elite reinforcements.

As I disband all the starting infantry in Norway and go for 251 halftracks (which are enough as your tanks are movement 6 max anyway),
I've never felt a need for 250 halftracks, unless I'm overflowing with prestige, so imho it's not a huge issue.

Started doing this in Rommel difficulty level and apart from the amazingly brutal-hard East USA air battle the rest of the scenarios were attainable.

Do note that the "best family" may be subjective, but the gist is the same regardless of which family is best.

I agree that using elite replacements in most cases is not needed, but on Field Marshall you'll swim in prestige if you don't.
And anyway, more often than not I use normal replacements to get to 10 and then elite to overstrength.

Obviously Rommel imposes extra limits to when you can use elite replacements and upgrade between families (instead of disband->upgrading), but that's why it's a extra difficulty level.

[impar]

Depends on the prestige and what kind of campaign you're going for obviously.

Was referring to the larger (USA invasion) campaign.

So it's really just one (two) family jump from PzIV->TigerI (->TigerII/Maus).

Or that.
Thinking that in the DLCs it will be Pz38->PzIV->Tiger or Panther.

Obviously Rommel imposes extra limits to when you can use elite replacements and upgrade between families (instead of disband->upgrading), but that's why it's a extra difficulty level.

Sure. Using the Rommel method in the normal difficulty levels makes them easy.

[Fimconte]

Depends on the prestige and what kind of campaign you're going for obviously.

Was referring to the larger (USA invasion) campaign.

In the "optimal" path to USA, Do217 is only better for 3 scenarios (Barbarossa, Kiev, Moscow 41) and you want to lose/MV Moscow 41.
And I'd rather have a 2-3 Hero (and 4-5 star) Strategic Bomber fleet by USA, so I think it's optimal to go Ju88 -> He177 instead of disband-upgrading (unless you can't afford it, ie perhaps on Rommel).

So it's really just one (two) family jump from PzIV->TigerI (->TigerII/Maus).

Or that.
Thinking that in the DLCs it will be Pz38->PzIV->Tiger or Panther.

Yeah, but I don't think Prestige is a issue in DLC, even on Rommel?
Although experience is non-issue also due to 225 cap in Poland/Norway, this is 1-3 scenarios.

[MartyWard]

Does prestiege carry over from each campaign?

[Kerensky]

Does prestiege carry over from each campaign?

Yes.

Before anyone says anything the alternative is even worse. If we strip people of all their prestige before starting a new DLC... what's to stop someone from dumping all their prestige into buying 'reserves' on the last scenario of a DLC, and then 'selling' them all at the start of the next one?

But to compensate for the obvious benefits of carrying your core from campaign to campaign, players who jump right into say... DLC 1941 will find a very overstrengthed core with a lot of extra prestige waiting for them, a pretty significant change from say... how the core looks in the current campaign's Barbarossa starting point.

[Locarnus]

There is some malus for disbanding/reestablishing the unit except experience.

Its the kills you lose.
And because kills are not only responsible for medals, but for heros, this could have real effects later in the campaign (when most needed).

I try to restrict myself not to exploit those mechanics too much anyway, but I agree that the experience system needs to be reworked (slower gains, and especially the fact that low values are only affected by high experience).

From a gameplay point of view it is bad that an infantry unit with 3 hard attack and 390 experience fairs no better against a hard target, than the same unit without any experience.

[impar]

I havent finished the 39 GC yet, but in the [spoiler]soviet wargame[/spoiler] I have 6-7000 prestige to spend, FM difficulty level.
Of course, havent spent prestige in elites and disbanded units to get other units, even if in the same class:
viewtopic.php?t=28953
And I think I only got DVs.
Finishing this DLC am thinking on re-playing it spending prestige in elites only to see the difference.

And... I finished it.
To recap, using only regular reinforcements and disbanding units to acquire new units I got this, FM difficulty:

Well, conquering Narvik made my prestige reach 9.979.

3 Pioniere + halftrack
2 SE Gebirgsjager + truck
5 Sturmpanzer
4 Panzer IIIF
2 Bf109
2 Stukas + 1 in reserve
1 Ju88
1 232 recon

Using elite reinforcements and upgrading units, from the second scenario onwards, I got this at the end of Narvik, also FM difficulty:
3.990 Prestige

3 Pionieres + halftrack
1 SE Gebirgsjager + halftrack
4 10,5cm + halftracks
3 Pz38(t)A
1 SE PzIIIF
1 8,8cm Flak + halftrack
2 Bf109E
3 Ju87B
1 He111
1 232 Recon

So, around 6.000 was spent on experience.
Going to GC40 now.

[kjeld111]

Very interesting facts impar, thanks for having taken the time to do this. The difference is huge ...

I know that the level cap skews things a lot (in fact, I'd tend to say that elite reinforcing units with a level cap so low is probably a mistake), but is there a substantial difference in terms of final experience/heroes between your 2 core forces ?

[impar]

... but is there a substantial difference in terms of final experience/heroes between your 2 core forces ?

Yes, there is a difference in the experience.
Pratically all the units in the regular reinforced core has one star, or almost one star. Except for the Stukas that have 2 stars.
The elite reinforced core is a series of 2 stars units. Except for the He111, the last acquisition.
Heroes are similar.

But the units that compose the cores are different. On the regular reinforced core I dont have to be in the "right" family, I will just disband an old unit and get a new unit, in the elite reinforced core I chose to keep the units in the "right" family tree to preserve prestige.
Reaching GC40 I wonder how much prestige I will have left after upgrading each core...

[impar]

Reaching GC40 I wonder how much prestige I will have left after upgrading each core...

At the start of GC40, REGULAR core, after reinforcement, disband and acquisition, Prestige 10.738.
3 Pioniere + halftrack
2 SE Gebirgsjager + truck
4 PzIVD
4 15cm + halftrack
1 232 Recon
2 Bf109
3 Ju87
1 Ju88

At the start of GC40, ELITE core, after reinforcement, overstrength and upgrade, Prestige 2.091.
3 Pioniere + halftrack
1 SE Grenadier + halftrack
3 PzIVD
1 SE PzIIIF
4 15cm + halftrack
1 232 Recon
1 8,8cm Flak + halftrack
2 Bf109E
3 Ju87
1 He111

There are some differences in the core due to the different SE units and the 8.8cm Flak.
Thinking on geting a 8.8cm for the Regular core and an extra infantry to the Elite core. Might even disband a SE infantry from the Regular core and "force" (via save\reload) a SE tank to make the cores similar.

[jaggy]

Thankfully the game isn't mainly balanced for people who win a DV in Kursk with a unit of Pz1As and 2 SE Wehrmacht '39.

Nah. Thats not the idea.
Its to use the best available units, even those that are not in the "good" family tree, and dont use elites.
If changing families when upgrading, disband to get prestige back and then upgrade.
Try it.

I've just started DLC '39 and I fully agree with impar. It was the hardest thing to do, not to elite-reinforce, to disband units and then upgrade to a better class (despite losing experience) but it is very efficient prestige-wise.

But what is crucial to maintaining a hefty prestige balance is squeezing out every prestige point on any given map. 50 prestige might not seem a lot but multiply it by 10, 20, 50, etc. and it adds up to a huge bankroll. In the entire '39 Campaign, I think the only maps where I didn't capture all the cities were Piatek (missed 3, the rest I sneaked away from the Poles between the waves) and in Kampinsoka Forest (missed Modlin, Skrzeszew and the two airfields, one on the edge of the map and one behind Modlin).

Again fully agree on capturing all available cities if possible. Just to clarify Fimconte, you managed to capture Kutno (nothernmost city) in the Lodz scenario??!!! There were a lot of enemy units up there! I gave it a go but just suffered too many casualties and decided to settle for a DV without getting Kutno city and airfield.

Even the infantry class with the "best family" Pionieres had some problems related to the transport. Upgrade elite reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Sure, keep the experience and pay 200P per unit. Upgrade regular reinforced Pionieres with 251 halftrack to 250 halftracks? Nope. Disband them, get 393P, acquire Pionieres with 250, pay 493P, total cost 100P per unit. Multiply that 100P difference for the 5-6 infantry units you have and you notice its handy to have that prestige. Also, there was no prestige spent on elite reinforcements.

I like the hard logic of this statement. I'm following impar's force configuration, except where he has 3 Pionieres, I still settle for Wehrmacht Inf/Gebirgsjager as I find the 3 movement more useful to my style of play. In effect, impar's style is building a nest-egg of prestige for the more difficult future DLCs. Better to suffer now, then in 1943, where low prestige will hamper tactics and constrain your equipment choices.

[impar]

My initial plan was to play a Field Marshall no-elites campaign, but I started thinking that there is just too many prestige at the start of GC39, its easy to configure the army with the best units, so started a Rommel campaign yesterday.
Pionieres immediately started looking too expensive, so am using Wehrmacht. And tanks, was about to get a 38(t) but was a bit reticent on spending so much prestige (238P) on another unit (had just acquired a 8.8+truck=324P), so was going to get the second best tank IIC (192P) when I noticed the IIC stats are very similar to the 222 and the 222 costs just 137P.
Of course I got another 222, the added mobility and the bonus against AT will come handy.

[dragos]

Prestige in 39 is enough to use mostly elite replacements and upgrade units (never disbanding). You may find yourself in the situation where you start a scenario with almost 0 prestige, under-strength units and incomplete core, but you can always recover and get decisive victories on FM level. I don't see what's the point of hoarding prestige in thousands and not use it.

[soldier]

From a gameplay point of view it is bad that an infantry unit with 3 hard attack and 390 experience fairs no better against a hard target, than the same unit without any experience.

++
the experience system is bugged and needs fixing.
Veteran soldiers should perform better than green amateurs when assaulting tanks but they do not

[deducter]

The game is playable on very little prestige if you are careful with your units. But it can certainly be extremely hard.

viewtopic.php?t=30753

From my own personal testing, DLC 39 is winnable for DV on every scenario with -75% prestige. My playthrough was very enjoyable, and also could be for those who enjoy this sort of insanity.

[jaggy]

From a gameplay point of view it is bad that an infantry unit with 3 hard attack and 390 experience fairs no better against a hard target, than the same unit without any experience.

++
the experience system is bugged and needs fixing.
Veteran soldiers should perform better than green amateurs when assaulting tanks but they do not

That's why I don't mind disbanding a unit when upgrading.

[jaggy]

@impar - Completed my stock Panzer Corps campaign at FM so the 3 additional difficulty levels are now available. However, couldn't resist playing the DLCs at FM. What's the Rommel mode? It doesn't say anything when I mouse-over the option.