Armor and Mech Blob - What Needs to Be Done?

[ferokapo]

One way to do that could be to allow the statistics screen to show ALL countries for both sides. This means you know the number of units of each major type (infantry, armor, air and naval). So you can use that to draw some conclusions. You don't know where the units are. You simply know that e. g. Germany has 8 armor units when they're built and you can try to counter that. Germany will be able to spot the counter by seeing the number of Allied armor units go up as well.

The same about naval and air units. It's harder for infantry units because it counts garrisons, corps and mech into one group. Maybe the statistics could count mech and armor into one group and just corps and garrison into the infantry group. That would hide the armor intelligence a bit too because you don't know if the increased number is mech or armor.

This is a very good suggestion, but I would add a randomized error of around 20% for enemy units, recalculated every three turns or so, or when a new unit has been built. For example, the Axis has 7 ARMs, but the statistics screen can show any number between 5 and 9. This would represent espionage, and you will be able to detect significant build-ups such as the armor blob, and if you pay close attention to the various estimates, you will eventually also figure out the true number of units. But it will prevent the enemy from knowing how many units are hidden from his view and could be elsewhere.

[gerones]

On the other hand if you charge in PP's then this couldn't be limited because you can't disband units. A putative PP overage would defacto be a fairly hard force pool limit.

PP´s penalties wouldn´t last forever so if in 1941 there´s a limit of 7 armoured units and you start Barbarossa with 9 then right in 1942 there won´t be any penalty at all since 9 armoured is the limit for 1942. The same if you start 1941 with a huge armoured force of 12 panzer korps: you will be getting PP´s penalty until 1943 when it is allowed to have 12 units of the same type. So no need to disband units at all when in later years you are within unit production limits.

I liked too oil option in the beginning but I really fear that players will be still trying armoured blob despite of oil penalties. If a player collects a large amount of oil (let´s say 800-900) before Barbarossa, the armoured blob will go no matter oil penalties. A significant PP penalty (let´s say 10-15 PP´s) per unit exceeded on each turn will be far more effective against german blob since this way german player will have more problems to replace losses in his panzer campaign.

[LOGAN5]

Germans building a ton of armor is not unrealistic, anyone ever heard of an assembly line? If you crank nothing but tanks you are giving up aircraft and navy, so how is this not possible? and why should this cost more oil? there is no justification for penalties other than cry babies "german armor is too strong"

[Plaid]

Germans building a ton of armor is not unrealistic, anyone ever heard of an assembly line? If you crank nothing but tanks you are giving up aircraft and navy, so how is this not possible? and why should this cost more oil? there is no justification for penalties other than cry babies "german armor is too strong"

Babies actually cry that they want real war simulation, not german mass armor vs soviet mass mech and other silly things.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Germans building a ton of armor is not unrealistic, anyone ever heard of an assembly line? If you crank nothing but tanks you are giving up aircraft and navy, so how is this not possible? and why should this cost more oil? there is no justification for penalties other than cry babies "german armor is too strong"

What do you base this on? The real Germans barely had enough oil to have 4 panzer groups in the east. As said before it's easy to just build the actual tanks. But you need spare parts, ammo, trucks to transport the oil as well. We're talking about doing this before Barbarossa in 1941 when Germany wasn't even geared to total war as they became in 1943.

Supplying air units with fuel was much easier because you could rail the supplies to the rear airbases. With armor units in the front line you need trucks going all the way to the front with the supplies. That's a completely different story.

So I just don't buy what you say that Germany could build as many as 15 panzer corps prior to Barbarossa. They simply didn't have the raw materials to do than. If I recall correctly then each panzer corps was about 500 tanks. So starting with 15 panzer corps means you invade with about 7500 tanks in May 1941. I would like to see the assembly line crank out that many tanks.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I liked too oil option in the beginning but I really fear that players will be still trying armoured blob despite of oil penalties. If a player collects a large amount of oil (let´s say 800-900) before Barbarossa, the armoured blob will go no matter oil penalties. A significant PP penalty (let´s say 10-15 PP´s) per unit exceeded on each turn will be far more effective against german blob since this way german player will have more problems to replace losses in his panzer campaign.

I don't think you will see Axis players having 800-900 oil prior to Barbarossa with the changes we've made. They may get to 600 or even 700 if they're conservative and ignore the Balkans, Norway etc.

Let's say they build a force of 15 panzer corps. That's 8 above the limit and the oil consumption is 4. So you burn 32 extra oil per turn. Let's say the armor units move every turn and attack every other turn. That means 6 extra oil per turn on average per tank. That's means the total consumption of tanks per turn is: 15*6 + 32 = 122 oil.

Let's say the Germans have 6 mech using up 2 oil per turn for moving and 1 oil for attacking every other turn. That means 18 extra oil from mechs.

The Axis have about 8 air units attacking with 4 oil per unit and they attack 2 out of 3 turns. So oil consumption is about 21 oil per turn.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Total oil consumption in Russia is: 122 + 18 + 21 = 161 oil.
In addition the Germans have some subs to move in the Atlantic. Let's say they burn about 4 oil per turn (moving and attacking). So the Axis will burn about 165 oil per turn.

They generate 50 oil per turn so the loss per turn is 115 oil. This means you deplete a 700 oil reserve is about 6 turns, not enough to last through 1941.

OK, the Germans can ignore using several of the air units, but that means the Russian units have better efficiency and the German losses increase. The Allies can build several strategic bombers and bombard Scholven and maybe even Ploesti if Greece is invaded. Germany doesn't have the airforce to challenge these bombers.

This simply proves that by increasing the oil consumption for overuse you can effectively stop the armor blob.

It's possible to add a PP penalty, but it will be the oil penalty and not the PP penalty that will force the Germans to abandon the armor blob. Germany can live with 10 PP's less per turn if they can knock Russia out of the war in 1942. When they run out of oil they can't do anything and that's more devastating. Armor units are sitting ducks if they have no oil to move forwards.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Also remember that this effect is mostly damaging to the Germans in 1941 when the Russians are most vulnerable and the Germans not yet completely geared for war. In 1942 the limit increases to 9 so you can easily run a 12 strong panzer corps, hoping to get to Baku or Omsk. In 1943 the limit is 12 so you can have 15 panzer units without being too hampered.

[zechi]

Just one suggestion for the Moderators. Could you please switch this thread into the General Discussion forum. I think it is misplaced in the AAR forum. Thank you!

[rkr1958]

One way to do that could be to allow the statistics screen to show ALL countries for both sides. This means you know the number of units of each major type (infantry, armor, air and naval). So you can use that to draw some conclusions. You don't know where the units are. You simply know that e. g. Germany has 8 armor units when they're built and you can try to counter that. Germany will be able to spot the counter by seeing the number of Allied armor units go up as well.

The same about naval and air units. It's harder for infantry units because it counts garrisons, corps and mech into one group. Maybe the statistics could count mech and armor into one group and just corps and garrison into the infantry group. That would hide the armor intelligence a bit too because you don't know if the increased number is mech or armor.

This is a very good suggestion, but I would add a randomized error of around 20% for enemy units, recalculated every three turns or so, or when a new unit has been built. For example, the Axis has 7 ARMs, but the statistics screen can show any number between 5 and 9. This would represent espionage, and you will be able to detect significant build-ups such as the armor blob, and if you pay close attention to the various estimates, you will eventually also figure out the true number of units. But it will prevent the enemy from knowing how many units are hidden from his view and could be elsewhere.

I sort like this idea too. However; I do think we need finer breakdown, something like: mech: x1-y1 armor: x2-y2 fighters: x3-y3 bombers: x4-y4 BBs: x5-y5 DDs: x6-y6 subs: x7-y7

However; this would require a new screen and I don't know how feasible that is.

[rkr1958]

Just one suggestion for the Moderators. Could you please switch this thread into the General Discussion forum. I think it is misplaced in the AAR forum. Thank you!

Your wish is my command. I also took the initative to split it out from the original AAR post and retitle it. Hope I haven't confused anyone.

[Plaid]

How it come i am an author?

[rkr1958]

How it come i am an author?

We drew lots and you lost.

[gerones]

Let's say they build a force of 15 panzer corps. That's 8 above the limit and the oil consumption is 4. So you burn 32 extra oil per turn. Let's say the armor units move every turn and attack every other turn. That means 6 extra oil per turn on average per tank. That's means the total consumption of tanks per turn is: 15*6 + 32 = 122 oil.

For this same example of 15 panzer corps PP´s penalty system would suppose 80 PP´s! lost for the germans each turn. IMO, that´s a significant penalty too since the germans would almost have no PP´s for repairing losses.

The fact is that oil penalty surely will work well when the limit has been much exceeded (e.g 15 armour corps) but if we find less heavy armoured blobs of 10-12 panzer corps (that can also crush the soviets) then oil penalty will affect the germans but not that much. That´s why I was wondering if we would also have to include a PP´s limitation system: a german armoured force of 10-12 panzer corps would have a penalty of 30-50 PP´s lost each turn and this will really hurt german production.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

One problem we have with a PP penalty is that Russia has 15 or so mechs in 1941 with a limit of 7. That means they have to play a lot of PP's because of that overuse. The 15 mechs are used to show the prewar organization of the Russian tank forces and a result to prevent the Russian armor blob. Russian tanks were implemented in mech corps until the reorganization in 1942.

We could make an exception where Russia gets double capacity of all units. Then we can have a flat penalty of 1 PP per unit over the limit. That means Russia will pay only 1 PP until they lose a mech (usually on the first turn of Barbarossa).

Is that a possible solution too?

The PP cost shows the extra resources needed to build the extra trucks etc. The oil cost shows the less efficient oil distribution due to overload of the logistics system to bring the oil to the front line units. I think the biggest penalty should be on the oil because the overuse would strain the delivery of resources to the oil consuming units the most. Think about how easy it would be for Russia to bombard the trucks driving towards the front line if you have almost 3 times as many as in a normal game. The trucks would risk being stuck in traffic jams and partisans could more easily blow some of them up etc.

[Plaid]

One problem we have with a PP penalty is that Russia has 15 or so mechs in 1941 with a limit of 7. That means they have to play a lot of PP's because of that overuse. The 15 mechs are used to show the prewar organization of the Russian tank forces and a result to prevent the Russian armor blob. Russian tanks were implemented in mech corps until the reorganization in 1942.

We could make an exception where Russia gets double capacity of all units. Then we can have a flat penalty of 1 PP per unit over the limit. That means Russia will pay only 1 PP until they lose a mech (usually on the first turn of Barbarossa).

Is that a possible solution too?

The PP cost shows the extra resources needed to build the extra trucks etc. The oil cost shows the less efficient oil distribution due to overload of the logistics system to bring the oil to the front line units. I think the biggest penalty should be on the oil because the overuse would strain the delivery of resources to the oil consuming units the most. Think about how easy it would be for Russia to bombard the trucks driving towards the front line if you have almost 3 times as many as in a normal game. The trucks would risk being stuck in traffic jams and partisans could more easily blow some of them up etc.

And will not USSR suffer huge penalty in 1939-40, when caps are small? Will they get deep into negative PPs?
Most trivial way is to remove all this mech from map and refund fixed ammount of PPs at very start of game. I guess PPs should be less, then price of MECHs, since allied player will not place newly built units into unsafe positions.

Another solution is to treat low-tech mech (lets say below 5 level upgrade) as infantry (no cap), if its possible to do. I don't think that anyone would "blob" low-tech units.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

You only pay when you're at war so Russia will only be penalized once Barbarossa starts.

[pk867]

For the moment the oil is the way to do it

[gerones]

One problem we have with a PP penalty is that Russia has 15 or so mechs in 1941 with a limit of 7. That means they have to play a lot of PP's because of that overuse. The 15 mechs are used to show the prewar organization of the Russian tank forces and a result to prevent the Russian armor blob. Russian tanks were implemented in mech corps until the reorganization in 1942.

I think the russians have 10 mechs at the start of Barbarossa and many of them are destroyed in the very early phases of Barbarossa so I don´t think this is an issue.

My concern about this question is that in CEAW GS exceeded capacities or supplies (amphibious landings, rail networks, axis supply in North Africa, naval transport) are penalized via PP´s. To penalize an exceeded type of unit capacity with PP´s would match with this philosophy.

[Plaid]

What if axis go barbarossa in 1939?
USSR will go deep below 0 PP with their mechs.