Change to FoG Game design - Are we stuck in a time warp?

[nikgaukroger]

Indeed. It's something that the figure manufacturers should have a think about - of the people buying figures - how many of them are under 30?

Anecdotally, not many for historicals.

Apparently the pattern seems to be that for figure gaming teenage boys get into GW then they discover girls/cars/booze/etc. and many drop out, then, in their 30's when they have settled into employment, but moved away from their low paying first jobs, and have the family started, some remember the fun they had with toy soldiers and get back into it, but often decide to do some form of historicals instead of GW. Clearly doesn't apply to all, however.

As I said, anecdotal, but I've heard the same sort of idea from a few different sources - they don't see the 18 - 30 age range as an opportunity for significant sales opportunities. Of course, given the cottage industry nature of historical wargames on the whole they may not actually be that well placed to spot an opportunity as it may need resources greater than they have to see if the market actually exists.

[robertthebruce]

You should look towards MM if you want a comparable pricecheck thiers IIRC is £14.00

MM doesn't come with figures Dave. And £25 would be extremely cheap for a starter army and rules.

Indeed. It's something that the figure manufacturers should have a think about - of the people buying figures - how many of them are under 30?

Me . But I have to admit that I don´t konw a lot of people who plays historical games and are under 30.
I was in Brticon 3 years ago and I felt like a baby.

[spikemesq]

Apparently the pattern seems to be that for figure gaming teenage boys get into GW then they discover girls/cars/booze/etc. and many drop out, then, in their 30's when they have settled into employment, but moved away from their low paying first jobs, and have the family started, some remember the fun they had with toy soldiers and get back into it, but often decide to do some form of historicals instead of GW. Clearly doesn't apply to all, however.

It's like you are stalking me . . .

[hammy]

Lots of interesting comments. Please keep posting thoughts and ideas. I am not going to post anything right now because I am a tad tired. For some insane reason I decided that getting a real job was a good idea and the early start and longish commute are starting to take their toll.

[DavidT]

D&D provides the best model - very easy to start with, both financially and conceptually -easily learnt by 10 or 11 year olds.

I take it you havn't tried D&D 4th Edition then?

If it ain't broke - 2nd Edition is fine by me, and it seems that the market agrees - 2nd edn PC adaptations of D&D were way more successful than 3rd edn, is there even a 4th out yet?

I was brought up on D&D and AD&D and even played a bit of 2nd edition - they were great. 4th Edition was released a few years ago and was available through many high street bookshops. Unfortunately it is extremely complex and expensive.

[Jilu]

MM doesn't come with figures Dave. And £25 would be extremely cheap for a starter army and rules.

Indeed. It's something that the figure manufacturers should have a think about - of the people buying figures - how many of them are under 30?

Me . But I have to admit that I don´t konw a lot of people who plays historical games and are under 30.
I was in Brticon 3 years ago and I felt like a baby.

Nathan here is 14 and is doing well

[robertthebruce]

Indeed. It's something that the figure manufacturers should have a think about - of the people buying figures - how many of them are under 30?

Me . But I have to admit that I don´t konw a lot of people who plays historical games and are under 30.
I was in Brticon 3 years ago and I felt like a baby.

Nathan here is 14 and is doing well

I know people who says that FOG is hard to learn, Juanmi Morillas Jr is playing here and doing very well at tournaments at age of 10.

I ever say that is a childrens game

[Strategos69]

I am pretty sure that knowing well all the FoG rules is much harder than most of the things children have to learn for school at 10!

[robertthebruce]

I am pretty sure that knowing well all the FoG rules is much harder than most of the things children have to learn for school at 10!

Sure, but there is boys at age of 10 who can do things that many old guys can´t dream.

[Strategos69]

I am pretty sure that knowing well all the FoG rules is much harder than most of the things children have to learn for school at 10!

Sure, but there is boys at age of 10 who can do things that many old guys can´t dream.

I am certain about that!

[azrael86]

Me . But I have to admit that I don´t konw a lot of people who plays historical games and are under 30.
I was in Brticon 3 years ago and I felt like a baby.

Nathan here is 14 and is doing well

I know people who says that FOG is hard to learn, Juanmi Morillas Jr is playing here and doing very well at tournaments at age of 10.

I ever say that is a childrens game

But did he learn the rules or did his dad/uncle/brother teach him? A ruleset should allow the independent to learn it (albiet not necessarily flawlessly).

[robertthebruce]

Nathan here is 14 and is doing well

I know people who says that FOG is hard to learn, Juanmi Morillas Jr is playing here and doing very well at tournaments at age of 10.

I ever say that is a childrens game

But did he learn the rules or did his dad/uncle/brother teach him? A ruleset should allow the independent to learn it (albiet not necessarily flawlessly).

I´m sure he never read the rules, he learned with his father who is a great player.

I have taught to play people who is much higher than him, and are no better players than him.

[azrael86]

I´m sure he never read the rules, he learned with his father who is a great player.

I have taught to play people who is much higher than him, and are no better players than him.

Good luck to him, but that won't build the hobby. I appreciate it makes me sound like Boycott, but the kids need to do it for themselves. Which is why £40 for a ruleset and army list ain't good enough.

[gozerius]

Then how are kids getting into FoW? True, you can scale things down, but who does? The first thing is to provide a fun atmosphere. Kids are primarily attracted to the blowing stuff up appeal of FoW, which plays like an issue of GI Combat.

[philqw78]

But did he learn the rules or did his dad/uncle/brother teach him? A ruleset should allow the independent to learn it (albiet not necessarily flawlessly).

So are you saying the rules should be playable independantly by a bunch of ten year olds who have never wargamed before? The same as we alll learnt chess.

[hammy]

Good luck to him, but that won't build the hobby. I appreciate it makes me sound like Boycott, but the kids need to do it for themselves. Which is why £40 for a ruleset and army list ain't good enough.

IMO £40 for a ruleset and army is actually a fairly ambitious target to aim at. When you consider it the price is not that different to computer games so it must be affordable.

The only way to get something down to that kind of price point is to reduce the number of miniatures and quite probably to see if there is a way to do something with plastics. It is certainly a worthwhile target but it will defnintely need a significant simplification of the game.

[robertthebruce]

Guys, If you make a very simple game, you will not going to attract 10 years old players, here in Spain teen and twenty years old players are looking for ultra-simple games and using few miniatures, not only the kids.

Young people want roll dices, no painting miniatures and 15 pages rulesets, they don´t have any interest in history, lot of people now is going into DBA. FOG is seems as purists and very hard game here.


I start to play wargames 14 years ago, when I was 15, and then I used rulesets as Ancient Empires and DBM later, now I see FOG like a fastplay, but you can´t understand that to young people who starts to play warhammer 5 years ago, and never read a book larger than white dwarf magazine.

[pcelella]

I start to play wargames 14 years ago, when I was 15, and then I used rulesets as Ancient Empires and DBM later, now I see FOG like a fastplay, but you can´t understand that to young people who starts to play warhammer 5 years ago, and never read a book larger than white dwarf magazine.

Let's see - started gaming 14 years ago when 15? That would make you 29 years old. In my circle of gamers, that would make you a VERY young gamer indeed

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

[hoodlum]

I start to play wargames 14 years ago, when I was 15, and then I used rulesets as Ancient Empires and DBM later, now I see FOG like a fastplay, but you can´t understand that to young people who starts to play warhammer 5 years ago, and never read a book larger than white dwarf magazine.

Let's see - started gaming 14 years ago when 15? That would make you 29 years old. In my circle of gamers, that would make you a VERY young gamer indeed

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

As previously stated we are becoming a gourp of grumpy old men....

[hoodlum]

Guys, If you make a very simple game, you will not going to attract 10 years old players, here in Spain teen and twenty years old players are looking for ultra-simple games and using few miniatures, not only the kids.

Young people want roll dices, no painting miniatures and 15 pages rulesets, they don´t have any interest in history, lot of people now is going into DBA. FOG is seems as purists and very hard game here.


I start to play wargames 14 years ago, when I was 15, and then I used rulesets as Ancient Empires and DBM later, now I see FOG like a fastplay, but you can´t understand that to young people who starts to play warhammer 5 years ago, and never read a book larger than white dwarf magazine.

Agree I am seeing that occur in NZ - Played a game last night we got stuckin and completed a 800 point game in 3 hours and that was jsut about right for fiishing but if there had been more manouvere then the game would have gone on for far too long and made the next day pretty hard at work.


My personla view is we should forget about fog 2 and focus on a new short game for 1.5 - 2 hours for smallr actions.