CMTs with LH

[peteratjet]

On a slightly different note ...

Consider the case where a LH declares a charge on a skirmisher BG, with a Cv BG standing a little further away, inside 7MU, with its intercept zone projecting into the path of the charge. If the LH does not pass a CT to charge the Cv, so that the Cv is not itself a target of the charge, is the Cv BG then able to intercept charge?

This came up, more or less, at Campaign, at a time when both of us were a little punch drunk and fatigued. I'm sure this is covered in the rules, somewhere, but I would be grateful for a concise explanation.

[spikemesq]

On a slightly different note ...

Consider the case where a LH declares a charge on a skirmisher BG, with a Cv BG standing a little further away, inside 7MU, with its intercept zone projecting into the path of the charge. If the LH does not pass a CT to charge the Cv, so that the Cv is not itself a target of the charge, is the Cv BG then able to intercept charge?

This came up, more or less, at Campaign, at a time when both of us were a little punch drunk and fatigued. I'm sure this is covered in the rules, somewhere, but I would be grateful for a concise explanation.

If the Cv would only become a target after evades or routes, then it can intercept if there is an intercept path before any routs/charges.

If the Cv would be contacted without and rout/evades, it is a target of the charge -- but the CMT failure makes this interesting.

For instance, consider LH that could charge a line of LH and Cv and could contact either BG or both with a legal charge move. If it fails the CMT, can it still carry out a charge against the LH only? If it passes the CMT, can it choose to contact the LH only? As usual, I don't have the rulebook at hand, so this may be covered already.

Spike

[gozerius]

The requirement to intercept is that you move into the charge path. My understanding is that the LH would then have to pull up short of the cav, thus there would be no contact, no movement in the manuever phase, and no shooting for either BG. This only applies to skirmishers. Medium foot shooters would have to pile into the cav.
The rule is explicit that charging LH MUST halt 1 MU away from any BG that would be contacted that requires a CMT to charge unless a CMT was made to charge. NO such requirement is mentioned for medium foot with missile weapons.

[philqw78]

This is in the FAQ. Unless the LH passed a CMT making the cav a target the cav can intercept and the LH do not stop short.

[spikemesq]

This is in the FAQ. Unless the LH passed a CMT making the cav a target the cav can intercept and the LH do not stop short.

The FAQ entry is interesting. It indeed says that LH may not stop short from interceptors.

That makes the "CMT transfer" question even more odd, IMO.

As it stands, LH charges

CAN contact other skirmishers

CAN contact non-skirmishers declared as targets after CMT

CANNOT contact non-skirmishers revealed by evades/routs of declared skirmisher targets (because no CMT)

CAN/MUST contact non-skirmishers who intercept (irrespective of any CMT for the initial charge)

That leaves the question (to me at least) of whether LH charges

CAN/CANNOT contact non-skirmisher targets revealed by evading non-skirmisher declared targets after passing a CMT?

Spike

[kevinj]

The FAQ entry is interesting. It indeed says that LH may not stop short from interceptors.

That makes the "CMT transfer" question even more odd, IMO.

I think that the reason for this is that the way Interceptors and Chargers are moved is just a mechanism to ensure that the original chargers are the ones who make contact and step forward if appropriate rather than the interceptors. They will then conform in the manouvre phase as normal.

[gozerius]

This is in the FAQ. Unless the LH passed a CMT making the cav a target the cav can intercept and the LH do not stop short.

The FAQ entry is interesting. It indeed says that LH may not stop short from interceptors.

That makes the "CMT transfer" question even more odd, IMO.

As it stands, LH charges

CAN contact other skirmishers

CAN contact non-skirmishers declared as targets after CMT

CANNOT contact non-skirmishers revealed by evades/routs of declared skirmisher targets (because no CMT)

CAN/MUST contact non-skirmishers who intercept (irrespective of any CMT for the initial charge)

That leaves the question (to me at least) of whether LH charges

CAN/CANNOT contact non-skirmisher targets revealed by evading non-skirmisher declared targets after passing a CMT?

Spike

If they passed a CMT to charge non skirmishers, they will charge home against revealed non skirmishers.

[gozerius]

This is in the FAQ. Unless the LH passed a CMT making the cav a target the cav can intercept and the LH do not stop short.

Interesting....
But I can understand the rational. The LH haven't reached the original target yet. The cav steps in their way. Boom!
(Or so we hope. Sharpens sabre.)

[Jilu]

Can LH break off? CV or KN must break off against foot but i LH not...

[kevinj]

CV or KN must break off against foot but i LH not...

All mounted troops (except Elephants) will Break Off in the circumstances described on P106.

[spikemesq]

If they passed a CMT to charge non skirmishers, they will charge home against revealed non skirmishers.

The rule says that they must stop short unless they have passed a CMT for that target. I am not so sure that the CMT result transfers to revealed targets.

Spike

[kevinj]

Having read and reread this a number of times, I now agree with Spike. You only take a CMT if you want to contact unbroken non-skirmishers that you could hit without being revealed by an evade, and any of this type that only come into the path once they are revealed by evaders are not covered by the CMT.

[philqw78]

Having read and reread this a number of times, I now agree with Spike. You only take a CMT if you want to contact unbroken non-skirmishers that you could hit without being revealed by an evade, and any of this type that only come into the path once they are revealed by evaders are not covered by the CMT.

The rules say
"If any of their charge targets evade skirmishers must halt their charge 1MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

So it seems if the CMT was not to contact them you cannot contact them. And I understand them to be a specific BG/BG's that must have been contactable at the start.

Again I do not agree with the rule but that is what it says.

[spikemesq]

Having read and reread this a number of times, I now agree with Spike. You only take a CMT if you want to contact unbroken non-skirmishers that you could hit without being revealed by an evade, and any of this type that only come into the path once they are revealed by evaders are not covered by the CMT.

The rules say
"If any of their charge targets evade skirmishers must halt their charge 1MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

So it seems if the CMT was not to contact them you cannot contact them. And I understand them to be a specific BG/BG's that must have been contactable at the start.

Again I do not agree with the rule but that is what it says.

Thanks for the quote.

Although I hate myself a little for this, what if the skirmisher's charge target routs instead of evades? Does the stop-short rule apply at all then? Could LH charge fragged LF, rout them, and have to contact non-skirmishers revealed by the rout?

Spike

[philqw78]

No, they stop 1MU short when pursuing if they would contact battle troops. And cannot contact battle troops they did not pass a test to charge.

But turning the question around. Fragmented troops may not charge but often must pursue. What if during the pursuit, which they are more likely to continue due to -2 on CMTs, they then reach other troops that they would contact. Since they are fragmented they cannot charge, and this would count as a charge. What do they do? Carry on to oblivion or stop short?

[ShrubMiK]

Leaving aside the various escalations ...

This all seems quite sensible to me.

1) In general, you wouldn't want skirmishers to charge home into solid troops revealed by opponents evading. It has to be possible to clear away enemy skirmishers even if they are sitting just in front of solid troops. Worrying about the rule stopping your skirmishers charging on into revealed solid enemy in a few circumstances where you might want them to do so seems like wanting to have your cake and eat it. Accept that the skirmishers shield the fragged cav from your skirmishers for a turn. If they don't manage to get bolstered, next turn you can try and make them pay.

2) LH don't get to stop short of interceptors. Not a problem, if they are silly enough to charge into a situation where they get intercepted by something they don't want to fight, they shouldn't charge in the first place. (And yes, I've been the silly person in this a couple of times!

[philqw78]

My escalation is in the FAQ. They continue to oblivion. But to go further then. Fragged troops cannot be shock. So do they count as lancers or impact foot at impact, as these are shock.

[gozerius]

Having read and reread this a number of times, I now agree with Spike. You only take a CMT if you want to contact unbroken non-skirmishers that you could hit without being revealed by an evade, and any of this type that only come into the path once they are revealed by evaders are not covered by the CMT.

The rules say
"If any of their charge targets evade skirmishers must halt their charge 1MU away from enemy to their front whom they would not normally be allowed to charge without a CMT (unless they passed a CMT to charge them prior to charging)."

So it seems if the CMT was not to contact them you cannot contact them. And I understand them to be a specific BG/BG's that must have been contactable at the start.

Again I do not agree with the rule but that is what it says.

I guess it depends on your definition of "them". I read it that "LH must pass a CMT to charge unbroken non-skirmishers (unless charging their flank or rear)". The CMT is not BG specific. Thus, LH having passed their CMT, will charge enemy non-skirmishers revealed by evades.
In other words, only those LH that did not take a CMT or failed a CMT to charge unbroken nonskirmishers will halt 1 MU away from revealed nonskirmishers.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Even though fragmented lancers and impact foot are no longer shock troops, they are still lancers or impact foot and should still get any benefits associated with their troop type.

Terry G.