No Prisoners! - The Victories of The Swiss

[Paisley]

While Grumbly toils in the slave pits, another Danish army has been sent packing.

[neil123]

How will we deal with these excomunicate Swiss?. I have pawned all the relics, sold off my wives and given absolution to a band of cut throats and murderers who as we speak march to do gods will.

Pope Impious XIII

[Paisley]

I suggest you give up excommunicating and pay a princely sum for us to become your guards. The other rubbish you have doesn't seem up to the job, frankly. Oh, by the way, we have a chicken bone that may belong to you...

[grumblefish]

Grumblefish wisely crops his shot to show the one area of the field where his men are not running screaming like little girls.

Is this one more to your liking:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1367 ... wnfall.jpg

If anybody wants to see a stream of running pikemen, just click the above.I'd post the break points, but I wouldn't want people to laugh too hard.

[Paisley]

I'd post the break points, but I wouldn't want people to laugh too hard.

Because yours were worse?

Actually, Grumbly, if it's not too much bother, could you reduce the size of the picture so it doesn't break the page view? Thanks. I just hate it when you have to scroll right to read the posts...

[grumblefish]

Actually, Grumbly, if it's not too much bother, could you reduce the size of the picture so it doesn't break the page view? Thanks. I just hate it when you have to scroll right to read the posts...

Oh yeah, I hate that, too. I'm just going to link the image...

EDIT: Wow you really did even out the break points; don't worry though, I have lead again now. Killing my impetuous cavalry general was really unsporting of you, though.

[Paisley]

Thanks, chief.

You're not a bad sort for a hybrid pope/oriental despot.

[grumblefish]

I'm wondering what the forum thinks is the best strategy: Paisley's "hide the generals just behidn the front rank" formation, or my "general leads from the front" style? I mean, if the general leads from the front then you have a harder punch (1 more unit with the additional reroll bonuses and cohesion stuff), but then you run the risk of him dying (like my cavalry general did, although that's only because he pursued a unit he broke all the way up to your pikeline.

Also, I have a borderline retarded unit of cataphracts that anarchy charged your pikes two or three times in a row. It is now skulking around the back of my line in a fragmented state.

[batesmotel]

I'm wondering what the forum thinks is the best strategy: Paisley's "hide the generals just behidn the front rank" formation, or my "general leads from the front" style? I mean, if the general leads from the front then you have a harder punch (1 more unit with the additional reroll bonuses and cohesion stuff), but then you run the risk of him dying (like my cavalry general did, although that's only because he pursued a unit he broke all the way up to your pikeline.

Also, I have a borderline retarded unit of cataphracts that anarchy charged your pikes two or three times in a row. It is now skulking around the back of my line in a fragmented state.

I think it depends on how many generals you have and what quality they are. If you have multiple generals and especially if they are only TCs, I'd go for putting them in the front rank and let them fight. Average pikes can definitely use the help against the superior Swiss especially. As far as your cataphracts go, I would try to keep them in reserve out of charge range of the enemy pikes until you have a flank or a hole to exploit. In general for fighting the Swiss I would much prefer to take the armoured cavalry lancers as much as possible over the cataphracts. Light spear armed cavalry like the Galatians is even better since they are as good or better against MF and will evade against the pikes.

Chris

[Morbio]

Also, I have a borderline retarded unit of cataphracts that anarchy charged your pikes two or three times in a row. It is now skulking around the back of my line in a fragmented state.

Thinks.... a quote for the Anarchy is ruining the game thread! I must admit, one impetuous (Anarchy) charge of pikes is maybe understandable (although not to many rational people), but 3 - until the go fragmented Well, at least they didn't rout!

[deeter]

I was just maneuving several Condotta heavy cav around some Swiss pikemen in the hope of turning their flank. But NO! They all charged head on into the midst of the pikes where they were slaughtered. Meanwhile, several of my carefully positioned pikemen also charged out to be cut down. At least routes are less weird. One step forward and two back.

Deeter

[batesmotel]

I was just maneuving several Condotta heavy cav around some Swiss pikemen in the hope of turning their flank. But NO! They all charged head on into the midst of the pikes where they were slaughtered. Meanwhile, several of my carefully positioned pikemen also charged out to be cut down. At least routes are less weird. One step forward and two back.

Deeter

Sounds like you brought your knights to the fore too soon or else just didn't swing around the flank outside of charge range. Being careful what way troops end up facing, especially drilled ones, can also minimize your vulnerability to anarchy charges. And is it really unhistorical for knights to charge frontally into Swiss pikemen? Tell that to Charles the Bold and the Burgundians.

Chris

[deeter]

Not unrealistic, but very stupid.

Deeter the not-so-bold

[Paisley]

I'm wondering what the forum thinks is the best strategy: Paisley's "hide the generals just behidn the front rank" formation, or my "general leads from the front" style?

With my Macedonians, I always had my c-in-c in the front rank of the pikes for the reasons you state and the two subs with companions and MF.

But with the Swiss at 600pts I generally fight in three divisions of 8 pikes and 3 halberds, each arranged thus:

_______Pike_ Pike_ Pike_ Pike
_____Pike______Halb______Pike
___Pike_____ Halb _Halb_____Pike

Which allows them some flank protection for each division. But as my two supporting generals are troop commanders, they need to be with the halberds in the second rank. so the whole division is in command.


The problem with trying to flank the Swiss with knights is that I generally just peel off three pikes or four pikes and a halberd or two and move toward them when they're close to tempt them into a charge. Knights are realy too slow to deal with this. Drilled lance armed cavalry would be a better bet, I think.

Obviously I didn't deploy like that against you, Grumbly due to the nature of the terrain. And actually in that instance I would have had my commanders with the pikes had it been possible to swap their units at deployment.

And is it really unhistorical for knights to charge frontally into Swiss pikemen?

Most certainly not... but deeter's were wily mercenaries familiar with the pike, not arrogant, hot-headed noblemen.

[grumblefish]

But with the Swiss at 600pts I generally fight in three divisions of 8 pikes and 3 halberds, each arranged thus:

_______Pike_ Pike_ Pike_ Pike
_____Pike______Halb______Pike
___Pike_____ Halb _Halb_____Pike

I figured you would take a good number of pikes rather than halberds which is why i went with the sword-wielding Agyraspides army, rather than the earlier pike one. In close combat my swordsmen were superior to your pikes, although for some reason they didn't do as well as they shouldve in our ongoing battle (although the unit with the general in is still standing and doing a good job of things). The hvy weapon halberds would cancel out the armour advantage of the agyraspides though, and therefore would have been even in the h2h fighting, but you can take greater numbers and they just might be cheaper, too, i'm not sure.


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
51/50 against 41/42
NOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo

next time I am dumping the useless elephants (40 points down the drain) and getting a much more tailor made army. Rematch, rematch, rematch!

[Paisley]

I was surprised you brought heffalumps but I thought maybe you had a sneaky plan for them.

Rematch by all means, shall I post the challenge or will you? I suggest the password = seizure

[grumblefish]

I like elephants, but you're right, they are expensive and not overly helpful against the Swiss.

Also, as I just posted in the other thread: my companion cavalry is precisely three hexes behind some disrupted pikemen, facing their rear, ready to charge. Oh but for one more turn...

[Paisley]

That's the sort of thing Napoleon said on St. Helena...

[grumblefish]

I have to drive up to Chicago right now, but I'll make the game (or if you've already made it, I'll enter it) after I get there and design a new army. Thanks for the game, but don't expect to win the second time round; my Seleucids have tasted Swiss blood, so now it's only a matter of time.

[Paisley]

Oke doke. I'll let you post the challenge. It'll probably be tomorrow before I can start playing now anyway.