Field of Glory Patch v1.2.5 Released!

[keithmartinsmith]

In not allowing two turns we have copied the table top game, where you can turn 180 but cannot turn again unless skirmishers.
Keith

[SirGarnet]

You can retreat, you just have to plan it a lot better. For me, it makes the uber-pike/bow/elite legionary army far less gimmicky and a more 'honest' option to play. All IMHO, as I appreciate everyone has their own style and taste.

Agreed -

Scutarii, it is much closer to the tabletop game now.

This means once you are within charge range of enemy you may be pinned in place, and if you want to withdraw safely need to leave some units as a rear guard to intercept enemy attacks on those turned to retreat. In the PC version it would be leaving troops in place a row behind. Have to see how that works.

In the tabletop version, only Skirmishers can simply back up (meaning 2 turns with a move away in between) and only an infantry move's worth and only if a test is passed.

That said, drilled troops can turn and move, which means mounted at least can turn and then wheel to sidestep ending facing the original direction.

It all places a priority on getting the battle line set up how you want it before getting close to the enemy- drilled troops can still reorganize more easily at a distance from enemy.

[RyanDG]

Training isnt only for attack, retreat is another part of the battle, a line can retreat even under attack or you dont remember Cannae where central line retreat fighting???.

Cannae was a very unique situation that does not have more than a handful (if any at all) contemporaries that have the same retreating line under attack that does not ultimately break and rout. It is one historical example, but by and large is absolutely the exception to the rule.

EDIT: in the actual game i cant retreat my line of pikes because if i do it i give my rear to enemy skirmish units because can use then now to fix my pikes, yes, very realistic that skirmish can take heavy units rear for me the solution is add to drilled unit a special movement called retreat that permit retreat ONE hex to rear without change orientation.

A skirmish screen will solve this issue and actually serves the historical purpose that the skirmish screens were supposed to do (ie occupy enemy skimishers while your phalanx gets in place. As long as you are using a basic skirmish screen for your phalanx units, I don't see how you should be caught in the rear from an enemy skirmisher...

[keyth]

Uber??? if units with organization and training cant do a fighting retreat who can do it??? if i select armies with drilled troops is because i can use then in attack and in defense, now only can use it or in attack or in defense because cant react to situations, at least they can add to drilled troops the option to retreat one hex without lose orientation.

Now the new uber armies are barbarian armies, cheaper than roman or pike armies and with the same defensive problems but you can buy more troops and search enemy flanks because now romans for example cant retreat a wing to cover enemy advance

EDIT: in the actual game i cant retreat my line of pikes because if i do it i give my rear to enemy skirmish units because can use then now to fix my pikes, yes, very realistic that skirmish can take heavy units rear for me the solution is add to drilled unit a special movement called retreat that permit retreat ONE hex to rear without change orientation.

The Spartans were particularly noted in ancient times because they could manage ONE about face with a phalanx, and even then it is unlikely that it would have been while close enough for the enemy to charge. I think the new changes reflect history more accurately than before. I do agree however with your point about skirmishers fixing heavies.

[Scutarii]

I buy the PC game and play the PC game, if we start to see the table game i can say that where is the movement of units in formations??? you in PC game only can move unit by unit but in the table game i think that you can move more than 1 unit at the same time and are something called flank march??? for me the change in drilled troops breaks the game because now you cant retreat only can use the drilled feature in attack and in my play style i use the drilled feature in defense, i dont remember change orientation of an unit before attack but i use it when i retreat a flank or a part of the line.

I like the change in general but not in the retreat feature, before do a critical change is a good idea test it in all situations and for me dont works in retreat as i say in other post for drilled units add a retreat option that permit drilled units retreat even a single hex to rear without loose orientation.

EDIT: the problems of Spartan falanx is a puntual situation, romans and other armies based on trained troops dont have the same problem or is the same a pike unit and a roman unit??? for me now the change destroy drilled work in retreat and open new exploits as the skirmish sploit.

[SRW1962]

Uber??? if units with organization and training cant do a fighting retreat who can do it??? if i select armies with drilled troops is because i can use then in attack and in defense, now only can use it or in attack or in defense because cant react to situations, at least they can add to drilled troops the option to retreat one hex without lose orientation.

Now the new uber armies are barbarian armies, cheaper than roman or pike armies and with the same defensive problems but you can buy more troops and search enemy flanks because now romans for example cant retreat a wing to cover enemy advance

EDIT: in the actual game i cant retreat my line of pikes because if i do it i give my rear to enemy skirmish units because can use then now to fix my pikes, yes, very realistic that skirmish can take heavy units rear for me the solution is add to drilled unit a special movement called retreat that permit retreat ONE hex to rear without change orientation.

Whilst the new movement system for drilled troops may not be completely perfect, it is much better than the ption we had before as units were far too manoeuvrable. I would agree that a one hex retreat facing the same direction may be preferable to some players (and possibly myself included on that) it really doesn't take too much extra planning to withdraw units in the face of an enemy, the trick is not to leave it too late. This would to me to be far more realistic in terms of what it would take to withdraw troops that are near to combat zones, there should always be a chance that the withdrawal goes horribly wrong and turns into a rout. As for skirmishers catching your pikes in the rear as they are withdrawing, firstly that is their job to harass your heavy units, and secondly where are your light troops as they should be covering your withdrawal.

I really don't think there are any real super armies as they all have strengths and weaknesses depending upon terrain and how they are employed etc. As for my pike armies I am more than happy with how they handle and I would personally welcome any barbarian onslaught or better still I would attack them as in the end they will still lose to the pikes.

I think that the more you play with the armies as they are now the more you will hopefully appreciate that things have improved from how they were. Keep plodding on with the pikes as they are still more than a match for any other infantry type on the right ground of course

[IainMcNeil]

The point is not to make it everything the tabletop, but we felt it was unrealistic as it was. If something on the Tabletop conflicts with gameplay we wont do it, but we strongly feel this improves the game. Now you can retreat from the enemy but you can only do it if you retreat in time. You must retreat one turn sooner. If an army turned and walked away from the enemy at short range it would have been chaos and probably turned to a rout - it just didn't happen. Your drilled troops are still able to withdraw but now must be used in a realistic way.

There is no doubt it changes how you need to play. Once you get used to it it feels much more natural.

[RyanDG]

I buy the PC game and play the PC game, if we start to see the table game i can say that where is the movement of units in formations??? you in PC game only can move unit by unit but in the table game i think that you can move more than 1 unit at the same time and are something called flank march??? for me the change in drilled troops breaks the game because now you cant retreat only can use the drilled feature in attack and in my play style i use the drilled feature in defense, i dont remember change orientation of an unit before attack but i use it when i retreat a flank or a part of the line.

I like the change in general but not in the retreat feature, before do a critical change is a good idea test it in all situations and for me dont works in retreat as i say in other post for drilled units add a retreat option that permit drilled units retreat even a single hex to rear without loose orientation.

EDIT: the problems of Spartan falanx is a puntual situation, romans and other armies based on trained troops dont have the same problem or is the same a pike unit and a roman unit???

You can still use the drilled feature in defense. Just not with a rear retreat in charge range. The whole purpose of a drilled unit is to deal with positioning and response prior to engaging in charge range with the enemy. Once you've committed your positions (ie, placed within charge range of the enemy), your maneuverability will be restricted, but even then, the drilled units ability to move and face in the same turn provides a much greater reactionary advantage to the undrilled units. I understand that you don't like the comparisons to the table top (that the PC game is getting closer to the table top in this way), but it isn't just getting closer to the table top, but also getting closer historically to what could be expected of units on the battle field. I believe that the current changes brings the game both in line closer to the table top and closer to the historical representations of the units without sacrificing unit balance.

[Gunjin]

Well, i test it again and find, for me, the bug, if you retreat a drilled unit CANT CHANGE ORIENTATION of unit after the movement.... well, for me this is a piece of **** because now drilled units are as undrilled in retreat, cant retreat and form a new front... change this PLEASE!!! or at least add to drilled units the option to retreat one hex and mantain the orientation to enemy troops

[Edit : Once again...]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. This is the ancient period of warfare..not modern. Troops in this period generaly went forward engaged the enemy and either ran away or persued victorious. That includes drilled troops. For a pike block to do what you are talking about in the close vacinity of enemy is totally unrealistic. To expect a tightly formed body of men armed with a 16' pike and shield to turn there back on the enemy that are within close proximity, keep there morale and order move away a small distance then turn and face is an impossable thing to expect. Experiments were carried out by Hans Delbruck in the 19th century (History of the Art of War "Antiquity") which showed how difficult it was to use this weapon and manouver. Regarding the Romans order and discapline. One of the reasons why they managed to defeat the pike block was due to there method of battlefield relief. Again they did not turn there back on enemy in close vacinity. The maniple system they employed at the time allowed a maniple to pass through an existing engaged maniple and replace them in combat, while the other retired.

I cant think of a battle that I have read about during this period where troops did the fine type of manouvering in front of the enemy that you are suggesting. The manouvering occured before they got to a distance where they were concidered committed.

I think the changes to movement that this patch has brought is more realistic and does away with the gamey moves that we have all been using.

[Paisley]

Whilst the new movement system for drilled troops may not be completely perfect, it is much better than the ption we had before as units were far too manoeuvrable.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I do (at the risk of banging on) think simply requiring a CMT (failure punishable by loss of a step of cohesion for each failure) for each change of face, if combined with a move would allow people to try withdrawals such as that of Philip at Charaeonea, the Spartans at Thermopylae or (possibly) Hannibal at Cannae - though I suspect there this troops were simply 'pushed' back, and given their high casualties, the Gauls may have simply been routed. But it'd be risky - as it was historically (and hence rare).

[Scutarii]

Well, i dont like it and dont find a way to adapt to this new feature because for me open new exploits in the game because now you are forced to use your skirmis as protection in retreat BUT they could be fixed by enemy skirmis and destroyed in next turn by enemy HF units when your pikes or HF drilled units are changing their orientation, here is another problem more important for me than the drilled units, for me 2 rout points for a skirmis unit, same as a HF unit is a little psss is the same put 500 light soldiers in rout than 1500 heavy armored troops???

The actual change in drilled units is a bad feature and dont like it in retreat situations because with the fog of war you need an extra turn to react to enemy and if you have a pike or a roman army you are f***** and play with a "camper" tactic is patetic only because can do a simple retreat of one hex without loose orientation, this is my point of view.

[IainMcNeil]

Please give it a try before you condemn it. The point is in ancient warfare you could not retreat. If you became committed you had to fight your way out. You must lure your opponent in to unfavourable positions. Previously it was too easy to escape. Now you need to plan one more turn ahead to avoid disaster. I can see how it could spoil a game in progress where you were expecting to be able to retreat so we'll have to see what we can do about allowing people to continue and complete games in the older version.

[TheGrayMouser]

Scutarri, I dont think you need to worry about skirmishers slamming into the rear of your retreteing heavies, if they (the heavies) are in good going it is rare that the lights will even make the charge(anarchy)

Also why would a line of heavies be retreating from skirmishers anyways

I see your point about barabrian armies reaching a closer parity to drilled armies but in practice i dont think it will matter.. Alse barbarian heavies would likley be much faster than pikes or even legionairs in reality(but in game both have same 2 hex movement), so you could argue that the way it was , was very artifical... No army would ever try to do intricate retograde motions in the face of the enemy... Even Frederick the Great's heavily drilled army needed a space of a minimum of 1/2 a mile from the enemy before it could practice the famous right angle turn from aproach column to battle line parallel facing the enemy

I think the result of these changes will mean you just need to plan things, even more so than prior, several turns ahead.

[Scutarii]

Sorry but i know what i say, for example, in the actual game i can survive to enemy evasion in the center (move all their pikes and HF to the flanks specially right flank and leave a line of skirmish and LH with a pair of HF units in the center but hey, cant retreat my pikes in the center because light units in enemy army can attack their rear anf fix them and with a few luck use the HF to attack D pike units) because i can redeploy my pikes yo the new situation now with the changes can do it and i loose the battle, i know it because cant attack and cant retreat in other words i am f*****

The problem with drilled units isnt the scape, is the range of scape, HF can retreat 2 hexes and dont loose orientation, well, change this limiting the rear movements to a single hex but dont avoid it, now you can open the game and see that in advance drilled units can change 180º their orientation (3 triangles) but when retreat only can do it 120º (2 triangles) if in retreat can change orientation 180º as in advance (but with the same movement range as in advance) units dont show their rear to enemy "only" show their FLANK, is bad but hey is worst show your rear.

You have 2 options to do an elegant solution to this problem, or add retreat option to drilled units and permit a one hex retreat witout loose orientation or permit retreat all you can BUT given to the units the chance to move 60º because in retreat only change 120º.

[ianiow]

On the point about skirmishers attacking pike in the rear. Ok, it may inconvienence the retreat of a line of pikes, but on the other hand skirmishers gets no particular bonus for attacking in the rear and will infact be at a severe disadvantage.

Personally if I was playing against your pike, I think it would be suicide for my skirmisher to attack and not worth the loss in 2 AP (the skirmisher) just to hold a pike unit up so my HF can attack 1 or 2 turns later. Besides, my HF may have to wait for the skirmishers to die before there is room for him to attack.

I guess it depends how badly i dont want your pike to ge away!

[batesmotel]

Well, i dont like it and dont find a way to adapt to this new feature because for me open new exploits in the game because now you are forced to use your skirmis as protection in retreat BUT they could be fixed by enemy skirmis and destroyed in next turn by enemy HF units when your pikes or HF drilled units are changing their orientation, here is another problem more important for me than the drilled units, for me 2 rout points for a skirmis unit, same as a HF unit is a little psss is the same put 500 light soldiers in rout than 1500 heavy armored troops???

The actual change in drilled units is a bad feature and dont like it in retreat situations because with the fog of war you need an extra turn to react to enemy and if you have a pike or a roman army you are f***** and play with a "camper" tactic is patetic only because can do a simple retreat of one hex without loose orientation, this is my point of view.

In the future, please ignore the nominal troop strengths given for units when discussing the game's realism. They have no relevance whatsoever to the game and how it works and essentially seem to be primarily of value in causing confusion in understanding how the game works and how it attempts to model ancient combat. The TT rules on which the games combat system is based intentionally do not have an explicit troop scale given since the overall design was done top down rather than bottom up starting with determining the combat effectiveness of individual men. The combat system in the PC version pretty faithfully recreates that used in the TT rules so it also does nothing to model the explicit strengths of units in the real world.

Chris

[Scutarii]

The problem is that even the sacrifice of skirmish is usefull now because they have a chance to D the pikes (small but more than the chance that they have before) but if the pikes offer their flank or the wall if pikes you know that a skirmish attack is a suicide and dont see it.

As i say before the patch drilled units have an extra rotation of 60º in the worst situation (120º when retreat and another 120º when turn to face enemy) now in the best situation only change 120º, i test it in the game when retreat now you only change 120º (2 positions) you lose 60º, if you add it to the unit you can offer your flank to enemy attacking in the best position.

In general i like the changes but in this situation of drilled units in retreat i am very disappointmented because kill the only chance that an army based on this troops have to fight against a bigger army.

EDIT: the problem for me isnt the number of troops is that isnt the same defeat a small unit of skirmis than a HF unit, isnt a number of men problem, is a value problem defeat a 4 points unit is the same in rout points that defeat a 20 points unit and only dont like it for the skirmish exploit where enemy use it to fix your skirmish and if you try to prevent this tactic you cant use your jabelin units in attack

[RyanDG]

In general i like the changes but in this situation of drilled units in retreat i am very disappointmented because kill the only chance that an army based on this troops have to fight against a bigger army.

I don't see how this is the case and would gladly test it against any larger army. You still have advanced maneuverability, but just like in the actual historical battles - the maneuvering occurs prior to being engaged by the enemy (which for all intents in this game is reaching charge range). I think you are over-estimating the results of this change. In nearly every battle I've fought in with a 'drilled' based core, I can only count a couple of times off the top of my head where I even considered using a rear retreat followed by a forward facing move in the prior versions. It never affected my ability to succeed as a drilled army. And now that we are closer to how we would expect our historical namesakes to perform in, I hardly see how this change will affect the armies ability to succeed.

Were you really using the retreat/about face move all that frequently? If so, could it be that you were just not responding to battle line shifts as fast as you should've been prior to engagements? I just fail to see how the retreat/about face is as vital as you are claiming it is to drilled units.

[Epicouros]

I welcome the changes! Like most people I guess. It seems like you're in the minority here scutarii.

It may be difficult to adjust now, but give it some time and you'll learn to adapt.

As for games already in progress, well... They're just that. Games... that got more realistic and enjoyable if you ask me.
I don't mind at all that my games in progress will play differently. It's the same for my opponent, and only a game after all.
In fact I almost felt bad playing this (now fixed) drilled retreat exploit on Paisley.

Furthermore, if you're afraid of new exploits: well, this will hardly be the last ever patch now, will it? If they crop up, I'm sure they'll be fixed if serious enough.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be off playing!

[kilroy1]

The in-game help is working here on a test system. Is this help from the main menu or from within a game in progress? Keith

I've tried it both ways. This is installed on Windows 7 64bit.

kilroy

I can wait thirty seconds or more and the Help will not show, but if I alt-tab to windows and then back the Help is visible.

kilroy