Catalan Company 800 Pts

[Ghaznavid]

I would be inclinded to query how redimented the catalan company was (Drilled being used to show manoverability and battlefield effectiveness rather than regimentation)
if they were generally mixed up, then the amount of armour would be dispersed over the units in an even fashion with differeing armour all mixed in (supporting Nik)
If not then some "regiments" may have been better equipped, (allowing Karstens interpretaion)

Well for starters, check here: viewtopic.php?p=85576#85576

[xavier]

My list is quite different

I use plenty of LF:
2x almughavar skirmishers
1x LF XB
1x Greeks



The Catalan Company is far from being a killer army, but is really fun to play (if you like fast aggressive playing) and can do quite well against many opponents, specially shooty cavalry armies, which are quite popular down here by now.

Interesting, there are many ways to do this! However if you don't want lots of Almughavars then I wonder if you might be better with another list - MCA, SHNC or Latin Greek with catalan allies? All have more proper knights and better LF...

Not sure I agree that you can't fight HF - certainly good HF is a problem, but average HF (and a lot of it is average) is vulnerable to massed almughavars.
Also, whilst in principle the unprotected sounds good, you do tend to get shot a lot (especially by Ottomanns, for some reason )

But no doubt it is great fun to play. Also recommend Muntaner if you can find it. Lapses into Caesar-like propaganda at times, but still required reading.

I prefer the troop mix in the Catalan Company. In MCA the almughavars are undrilled, in the Latin Greek list they are allies, etc. Moreover, although I like to have a BG of knights, one is enough. I prefer to be able to combine them with the superior alforrats, who can move faster and manouvre better.

Luckily, I can read Muntaner and Desclot in the original version (being Catalan myself). They were the main sources I used to write down the list (conveniently filtered first, of course).

[xavier]

IMO it is quite clear.

Is not!

Bloody foreigners!

Well, my original intention is explained in a different post (Karsten already sent the link to it): I didn't want to allow a combination of IF and OF, although I saw no problem in having a combination of protected and unprotected units.

On the other hand, as Nik points out, the ultimate list writer is Richard, and my understanding of his final version of the list is that the restriction applies to armour as well. Despite the fact that this goes against my original idea, that's how I'm using the list myself now...

[Ghaznavid]

I prefer the troop mix in the Catalan Company. In MCA the almughavars are undrilled, in the Latin Greek list they are allies, etc. Moreover, although I like to have a BG of knights, one is enough. I prefer to be able to combine them with the superior alforrats, who can move faster and manouvre better.

That is actually a point I've a problem with. I know the Company worked for both Charles of Valois and Walter V of Brieme and that being an ally to Charles is fine. Shouldn't the Latin Empire be the allies while they been in the employ of Walter V? They mostly worked on their own while in the employ of Walter V with only some occasional support by troops of their employers (clearly in the minority) and it been the Company Commanders in in charge then.
That would give us a Catalan Company ally for the Latin Greece in 1308 & 1309 (where currently they can't be allied to the Latins) and a Latin Empire Ally to the CatalanCmpany in 1310 (currently the only time they can be an ally to the Latin Empire).

[xavier]

I prefer the troop mix in the Catalan Company. In MCA the almughavars are undrilled, in the Latin Greek list they are allies, etc. Moreover, although I like to have a BG of knights, one is enough. I prefer to be able to combine them with the superior alforrats, who can move faster and manouvre better.

That is actually a point I've a problem with. I know the Company worked for both Charles of Valois and Walter V of Brieme and that being an ally to Charles is fine. Shouldn't the Latin Empire be the allies while they been in the employ of Walter V? They mostly worked on their own while in the employ of Walter V with only some occasional support by troops of their employers (clearly in the minority) and it been the Company Commanders in in charge then.
That would give us a Catalan Company ally for the Latin Greece in 1308 & 1309 (where currently they can't be allied to the Latins) and a Latin Empire Ally to the CatalanCmpany in 1310 (currently the only time they can be an ally to the Latin Empire).

My opinion is that there should be no Catalan Company allies at all in the Latin Greece list, nor Latin Greek allies in the catalan Company list, since after the nasty experience with the Byzantines and Alans the Company always fought on their own. They didn't contribute with any big contingent to any Latin Greek army, nor did the Latin Greeks contribute with any substantial contingent to the Catalan Company.

In fact there were no major battles while being employed by Charles of Valois first and Walter de Brienne later. The campaigns consisted in assoulting castles, towns, etc. and minor skirmishes, no pitched battles until the Company was betrayed by Walter and defeated his army at Kephissos.

What we could actually have, is an option for 1 or 2 BGs of almughavars in the Latin Greece list, representing not an allied contingent belonging to the Catalan Company, but rather freelancers that temporally left the Company and sought for their own fortune (like the ones lead by Ferran Eiximines that had left the Company in 1302 an re-joined it after the Byzantine betrayal).

[Ghaznavid]

My opinion is that there should be no Catalan Company allies at all in the Latin Greece list, nor Latin Greek allies in the catalan Company list, since after the nasty experience with the Byzantines and Alans the Company always fought on their own. They didn't contribute with any big contingent to any Latin Greek army, nor did the Latin Greeks contribute with any substantial contingent to the Catalan Company.

Well the question is what constitutes a 'substantial' contingent. At Kephissos Walters entire knight force is stated at some 600. Even if we assume that this number does not include the mounted sergeants and retainers fighting with the knights that gives us less then 2000. If we were to apply the 250 peeps per base assumption just two BGs, so obviously (as often during the medieval period) the scale here is a far smaller. That would in turn imply that just 60 or 70 Knights and maybe 200-300 archers could be be a sufficiently large force to justify the ally.

[Ghaznavid]

But no doubt it is great fun to play. Also recommend Muntaner if you can find it. Lapses into Caesar-like propaganda at times, but still required reading.

Luckily, I can read Muntaner and Desclot in the original version (being Catalan myself). They were the main sources I used to write down the list (conveniently filtered first, of course).

Btw. for those interested in Muntaner and not speaking Catalan...
in German: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ntaner.pdf
in English: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/muntaner_goodenough.pdf

[xavier]

My opinion is that there should be no Catalan Company allies at all in the Latin Greece list, nor Latin Greek allies in the catalan Company list, since after the nasty experience with the Byzantines and Alans the Company always fought on their own. They didn't contribute with any big contingent to any Latin Greek army, nor did the Latin Greeks contribute with any substantial contingent to the Catalan Company.

Well the question is what constitutes a 'substantial' contingent. At Kephissos Walters entire knight force is stated at some 600. Even if we assume that this number does not include the mounted sergeants and retainers fighting with the knights that gives us less then 2000. If we were to apply the 250 peeps per base assumption just two BGs, so obviously (as often during the medieval period) the scale here is a far smaller. That would in turn imply that just 60 or 70 Knights and maybe 200-300 archers could be be a sufficiently large force to justify the ally.

The point is that I didn't find anything suggesting that even such a reduced group of troops joined the Company in any of its raids. As I said, they were not keen at all about having guests in their parties...