Conforming big units in melee

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:30 pm

Polkovnik wrote:
graym wrote:How often does this happen ? In my last 3 out of 3 games trialling playing with 12 base Dom legions.
....This is still relevant if you are LH hunting with 4 or 6 wide Cav units clipping one unit and swinging out to collect all and sundry. 6 reg Knights obviously too.
I fail to see why any sensible player would want to minimise impact dice in these situations. Roman legionaries are the best foot troops at impact, cav are better than LH at impact, knights are better than most things at impact. So these troops would normally be aiming to get maximum contact at impact, not minimum.

Dominate legions might be, say, armoured, light spear sword and so might want to minimise impact. But putting them in 12s would make them expensive.

There is another mechanism that can trap unwary enemy who have an excat base width gap from someone you're fighting. It requires you to have, say, a base overlapping one enemy BG and in front corner to front corner only contact with the new BG you want to fight. In the enemy movement phase simply feed in bases to contact the new BG. It happens before movement and so they can't get away.

Don't need all that wheeling then

Graham

graym · Post by **graym** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:30 pm

No they are 12 base legionary only units operating at least 6 wide and sometimes more to achieve maximum engagement range to scoop up light troops as they swing.
Which depending on whatever [ and as far as i can tell uncertain] interpretations wont be able to evade.
That's why a ruling on that was part of my query.

It's a highly horses for courses ploy but if it allows you to engage a weak unit as part of your tougher impact target fight it can give you some extra inflicted casualties to ensure you dont lose overall.

I would have thought for knights charging LB with stakes down it's the only way to go. Sure you might suffer a flank charge but the knights are probably S with general and wont suffer many casualties and a big unit is more likely to survive.and then the LB have to conform away from their stakes`.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:39 pm

BG conform at the begining of the movement phase. There are named instances when you can contact enemy during the movement phase. Frontal contact is not one unless contacting an overlap or already in corner to corner. So you can't contact that enemy, therefore you can't conform. So in the next move phase the enemy conforms to you. And you leave your flank hanging out.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:49 pm

philqw78 wrote:BG conform at the begining of the movement phase. There are named instances when you can contact enemy during the movement phase. Frontal contact is not one unless contacting an overlap or already in corner to corner. So you can't contact that enemy, therefore you can't conform. So in the next move phase the enemy conforms to you. And you leave your flank hanging out.

My point exactly.

Yes a very wide BG could 'scoop up' other BGs in a conform but only if the front edge of the other BGs is EXACTLY level with and a multiple of base widths to the side of the front of the BG being charged. If the "scooped up" BG is slightly infront of the charged BG or is not an exact multiple of base widths away then the uber conform will not be allowed so it won't happen.

graym · Post by **graym** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:59 pm

Well Phil that was the initial question , with your first response saying that conforming and melee would then occur.

Now after some thought and interesting discussions that is now not the case so that's good.

I guess the next question is do you conform at all or stop just short of the new unit.

And do perfectly aligned skirmishers get to evade?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:06 pm

graym wrote:Well Phil that was the initial question , with your first response saying that conforming and melee would then occur.

Now after some thought and interesting discussions that is now not the case so that's good.

I guess the next question is do you conform at all or stop just short of the new unit.

And do perfectly aligned skirmishers get to evade?

In my defence, something I am getting used to, I did not know the whole story when I first replied.

If you can't conform you don't, you just sit there and fight as if conformed.

If the perfectly aligned skirmishers were in a position of overlap they would be contacted and not get to evade. If there was a gap conforming would not take place.

IMO

graym · Post by **graym** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:50 am

Thanks for everyones contribution on this but at the end of the day therefore if a wide unit impacts a battle line of BG's it will collect everybody including the lights on the conform.
No evades. No support fire.

The step forward which has been strangely oft mentioned is a marginal factor if you are 6 -12 wide and single ranked.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:10 am

I'd love to see you pull it off in a game. 12 wide HF, wheeling then moving forward at an angle to the enemy line.

graym · Post by **graym** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:51 am

Well phil , it was a real possibility until this slightly unconvincing thread.

ok, the biggest was a 10-2 legion with a cat sup [ typing with a 4 weeker in my arms ] covering the forward swing.

but u wont try or think about this if u dont understand the concept.

the aim was to catch the frankly annoying skirmishers in a comp system where losing 2 poor lights gets u a 14-6 loss if the game ends before yr central line has done the good.

gotta feed my newest gamer. regards

michael

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:42 pm

Expanding into a BG of skirmishers that are providing an overlap is clearly allowed and IIRC is covered in the FAQ. The skirmishers do not get to evade. The downside however is that if the skirmishers are not in an overlap possition then you can't do it.

A long line hitting at an angle will definitely flip forwards and conform to overlaped BGs and any extra bases hit do not get support shooting or get to evade. Pulling in a BG that is not in base to base contact with the main line is in theory possible but very very unlikely as the player being conformed to has to cooperate. It might happen once but after it has it won't be happening again to that player as there as so many ways to prevent it.

I am still struggling to see any utility to this 'tactic'

graym · Post by **graym** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:32 pm

Reading that is reversing my last understanding. All units pulled in are probably overlapped and doesnt need any co operation from the opponent .
I thought an overlap had to be created to allow the swinging conform but not a new combat.. That changed the key point.

u cant do it essentially if yr relying on perfect line ups which this thread has eventually mandated .
b4 that it had possiblilities and realities which looked weird when they happened. 4 a laugh expand a 9 aux arm sup 1 deep to the lateral baseline approaching skirms and hit at a slight angle the lateral heavy unit.
impact is 2/2. then do the swing to scoop the light fantastic as discussed. no evades. sup. arm. sw. general. no evade . cya skirms. best way i've seen to catch skirms. the other vmd thing even with cav is tedious.
just need a small heavy medial flank cover
actually the whole ' dont conform if u cant and fight offset ' rule is not great and creates some funny stuff as it is..

have a play to see how it works b4 u knock it.
I'm tipping based on the number of thread views this will come up in a town near you for discussion.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:49 pm

philqw78 wrote:I'd love to see you pull it off in a game. 12 wide HF, wheeling then moving forward at an angle to the enemy line.

I'd love to play this guy also, if he regularly lines up his foot 1 deep.

BTW, does anybody have any idea what he is talking about in the last post ?

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:28 am

graym wrote:Reading that is reversing my last understanding. All units pulled in are probably overlapped and doesnt need any co operation from the opponent .
I thought an overlap had to be created to allow the swinging conform but not a new combat.. That changed the key point.

u cant do it essentially if yr relying on perfect line ups which this thread has eventually mandated .
b4 that it had possiblilities and realities which looked weird when they happened. 4 a laugh expand a 9 aux arm sup 1 deep to the lateral baseline approaching skirms and hit at a slight angle the lateral heavy unit.
impact is 2/2. then do the swing to scoop the light fantastic as discussed. no evades. sup. arm. sw. general. no evade . cya skirms. best way i've seen to catch skirms. the other vmd thing even with cav is tedious.
just need a small heavy medial flank cover
actually the whole ' dont conform if u cant and fight offset ' rule is not great and creates some funny stuff as it is..

have a play to see how it works b4 u knock it.
I'm tipping based on the number of thread views this will come up in a town near you for discussion.

Could you do me a favour and try to use proper words instead of similar sounding letters/numbers? I don't know how well native speakers cope with it, but I know it makes my head spin.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:32 am

Ghaznavid wrote: I don't know how well native speakers cope with it, but I know it makes my head spin.

Most native speakers would cope with it quite well.....as long as they're under 16. Since most of us on here are significantly older, I think we'd all prefer proper English, not text speak.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:39 am

graym wrote:Reading that is reversing my last understanding. All units pulled in are probably overlapped and doesnt need any co operation from the opponent .

Yes it does....

If your opponent does not have a heavy BG lined up exactly with a load of skirmisher BGs and then leaves either it or the skirmish BGs exactly where there were while your really wide 1 deep BG advances on them then you can do it. If on the other hand for some odd reason even one of the skirmish BGs advances even slightly the whole plan falls in a heap.

I very rarely see lights exactly lined up with heavies and can't remember the last time I saw a skirmish BG pulled into a fight because of an expansion.

Perhaps the people you play are a little limited in their consideration of responses to your cunning but I can assure you that there would be absolutely zero chance of you pulling this off in a game against me and probably the same chance against anyone at my club. If you are ever in Manchester I will gladly lend you an army so you can demonstrate the effectiveness of this plan.

graym · Post by **graym** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:32 am

Sorry for the last abbreviations but typing one handed with a sleeping baby in the other kind of encourages it.

At the end of the day the main question was how do you conform into other units.
The final answer appears to be you dont without lining up exactly including overlaps to existing contacts..

The other point is that there is no support fire .

By extension and lack of any other response I take it that you otherwise dont move at all if conforming contacts " non legal " troops.

Regards from the Limiteds Down Under

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:35 am

Can we clarify what the actual rules are to cover the situation being discussed here, preferably with diagrams.
Can a BG that is not contacted at impact be contacted in the Manoeuvre phase by a conform if it is :
A) in side edge contact and level with the contacted BG
B) level but not in contact
C) in side edge contact but slightly in front of the contacted BG
D) not in contact and not level

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:39 am

Polkovnik wrote:Can a BG that is not contacted at impact be contacted in the Manoeuvre phase by a conform if it is :
A) in side edge contact and level with the contacted BG

Since it is in an overlap position it can be contacted and cannot evade.

B) level but not in contact

No as it cannot overlap

C) in side edge contact but slightly in front of the contacted BG

if it could overlap the contact, which it can, it should IMO be contacted

D) not in contact and not level

No

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:48 am

Can you justify those answers from the rules. Personally I would say the conform cannot take place in any of these cases if it means contacting a new BG (other than only as an overlap) because of the rule (page 75, Moving into contact):
" Battle groups can only move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase , but only to join
an existing melee in an overlap position. "

In the FAQ we have :
"Can a BG in close combat expand into contact with a new enemy BG?
Yes, but only if either of the following circumstances apply:
- The new enemy BG was already fighting it as an overlap.
- The contact does not result in the previously unengaged enemy BG entering close combat (with the expanding BG)
other than as an overlap."

But this is referring to expanding, not conforming. And in any case it only allows an expansion into a BG that was already fighting it as an overlap. Which would not be the case here, as no melee combat has taken place.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:51 am

Polkovnik wrote:Can you justify those answers from the rules. .

No