cheesy rule

[david53]

As I have said its written down as clearly if you make the rear you pass through up to 2MU, its not chessy as the LF are punished by not being able to shoot if they move 7MU.

I don't think there is an issue about the LF moving 7MU, there is an issue about the Cavalry interpenetrating the LF and moving heaps more. If you have a column of 8 LF and interpenetrate with the second element only just getting into the rear of the LF, then being pushed through to the other side in some kind of transwarp drive scenario is going to give you about an extra 4MU of movement. Consider that they can be Lance Armed, and so being unable to shoot is of absolutely no negative.

I agree with you completely, I've never knowlingly done this not that good a player. But if its done to me I'm sure I'd be p***** but then have to move on.

[jlopez]

Frankly, anyone doing the space warp intentionally in a game with me would earn a well deserved 10-10 draw on the spot. I don't believe the rulebook prevents really slow playing to compensate for equally legal space warp movements by my opponent?

If the authors won't deal with it, the event organisers/umpires should. I certainly have no intention of attending any event whether in Spain or abroad that allows this kind of nonsense. I've got better things to do with my time and money.

Julian

[david53]

Frankly, anyone doing the space warp intentionally in a game with me would earn a well deserved 10-10 draw on the spot. I don't believe the rulebook prevents really slow playing to compensate for equally legal space warp movements by my opponent?

If the authors won't deal with it, the event organisers/umpires should. I certainly have no intention of attending any event whether in Spain or abroad that allows this kind of nonsense. I've got better things to do with my time and money.

Julian

As someone posted on here its been played at the IWA and here at Britcon, players are using it I know some think its wrong but as I've been told its written in them rules.
Dave

[marioslaz]

Frankly, anyone doing the space warp intentionally in a game with me would earn a well deserved 10-10 draw on the spot. I don't believe the rulebook prevents really slow playing to compensate for equally legal space warp movements by my opponent?

If the authors won't deal with it, the event organisers/umpires should. I certainly have no intention of attending any event whether in Spain or abroad that allows this kind of nonsense. I've got better things to do with my time and money.

Julian

This is the point. If you play historical wargame you should like history, so you should despise nonsense tactics which you can do only because rules don't prohibit clearly. If you like historical wargame and use a ruleset I would guess you don't want to transform it in shit. If you are disposed to exchange historical behaviour for an extra little chance to win, you don't like historical wargame. People can play a lot of interesting rulesets which have not any claim to be historical games, so why should they annoy us? Let them play some other game. Better 10 motivated gamers than 100 pains.

[petedalby]

This loophole was pointed out during beta testing as Dave previously noted.

Personally I've never used it and I hope it does not become a regular feature.

The most extreme version is to have a 8 BG of LF in column and interpenetrate it with a BL of 2 Cav BGs so that both enter and then warp all the way through.

Slightly disappointed to read that you seem to have used this tactic twice at Britcon Phil? And Dave R confesses to having used it at the IWF.

Is this just a Manchester thing then?

Please tell me this isn't what you teach at the MAWS Bootcamp Hammy?

[dave_r]

This loophole was pointed out during beta testing as Dave previously noted.

Yeah, by me personally

As Hammy has mentioned, the counter measures discussed just made other matters worse

Please tell me this isn't what you teach at the MAWS Bootcamp Hammy?

No - that's what me and Phil teach during the MAWS bootcamp when we move on to the advanced tactics

Joking apart I do this pretty much every game - single line of LF deploys at 15", Cav deploy at 10". First turn the Cav move approximately 7" and then get their second move usually. I rarely do the column thing.

However, as you say if this is a common thing at Manchester, then players at Manchester will not regard it as cheese, just a normal part of the game!

[philqw78]

Slightly disappointed to read that you seem to have used this tactic twice at Britcon Phil?

First time against Jacques. I moved some LF back towards my Cav and then interpenetrated the LF giving me about 1MU extra. The important thing was it stopped my Cav being pinned by some Russ spear that were chasing me. I did not need to do it as I could have changed direction and not been pinned, but in a timed game 1 more turn to get somewhere makes a big difference.
The second time agianst Graham Evans was not something that I set up to play for, not that clever, but when I noticed I could do it, and it would stop some of my Cav being threatened by an intercept charge I did it. I did get at least 4MU of extra move as well. It really upset Graham. Like Dave said above just the psychology of it was worth it.

You are all making me feel really evil now.

[MatteoPasi]

Its easy: in the next rules explanations let's specify that if there is the room the units instead of passing thougt slit a side.
Mat

[MatteoPasi]

When one unit interpenetrates another unit and all bases reach the interpenetrated unit, the moving unit is pushed forwards and the bases are placed on "the far side" .......
Now is simple way to counter this is to change the rule and permit this only in case of unvolontary interpenetration while fleeing, evading etc....
any comments ?

I agree, it is needed some counter.

Think about this:
Your example was made with front to rear interpenetration but ipotize that you are interpenetratin a LF unit on HIS flank .... hof far can you go ?
With 6 base the frontage will be 24 cm and the gaining will be 21 cm.

[david53]

Is this just a Manchester thing then?

No Hammy never showed us that at any bootcamps.

Its not a manchester thing but it might just be after reading about Daves extra 2mu gained by cavalry in the first move.

But I'm sure Phil and Dave R arn't the only ones that have used the push through rule.

Manchester now has two top evil players

[madcam2us]

Make it that only passage of lines in ranks of two and you fix a bunch of issues, IMO.

If this was playtested and not corrected, then its fair game....

I've not done it myself, but will do so in the future since the authors knew about it prior....

24 pts (8xpoorLF) to get this warp speed is a steal! Give 'em bows and watch out!

the new uber trooper!

Madcam

[jlopez]

Frankly, anyone doing the space warp intentionally in a game with me would earn a well deserved 10-10 draw on the spot. I don't believe the rulebook prevents really slow playing to compensate for equally legal space warp movements by my opponent?

If the authors won't deal with it, the event organisers/umpires should. I certainly have no intention of attending any event whether in Spain or abroad that allows this kind of nonsense. I've got better things to do with my time and money.

Julian

As someone posted on here its been played at the IWA and here at Britcon, players are using it I know some think its wrong but as I've been told its written in them rules.
Dave

It's in the rules so there is no question: it's OK to use. It's just that, personally, I prefer other rulesets for fantasy wargaming .

Julian

[dave_r]

It's in the rules so there is no question: it's OK to use. It's just that, personally, I prefer other rulesets for fantasy wargaming

Well, that's quite a change in stance from "if anybody does that against me I will simply refuse to play any more".

The fact it is in the rules should mean you have no problems with people doing this. If you don't like it, then as you say, you can always play other games.

[zatapec]

The use of such hole in the rules set by more skilled player always against new player killed the dbm in Italy at competition level in very few year .
I think its no fair blame the player who use the rule ,'cause is the rule itself who admitt the move .
No way to banned the rule at tournement as the rule is a part of Fog ruleset e we play Fog.
But the rule has a hole in itself if its possible to make such a kind of move.
Simply I hope the authors will covered the hole perhaps with a FAQ soon as possible to avoid stupid discussion between player inside a competition .
Andy

[philqw78]

The use of such hole in the rules set by more skilled player always against new player

Erm, in my defence, Jacques was leading the competition and Graham Evans is no Newbie.

Its like the Spanish Inquisition. When am I to be sent to the Hague for War game Crimes. Two cheesy rules and fingers pointing at me. I didn't write the rules. My BG were just obeying orders. The big boy made me do it and then ran away.

[jlopez]

It's in the rules so there is no question: it's OK to use. It's just that, personally, I prefer other rulesets for fantasy wargaming

Well, that's quite a change in stance from "if anybody does that against me I will simply refuse to play any more".

The fact it is in the rules should mean you have no problems with people doing this. If you don't like it, then as you say, you can always play other games.

OK, maybe I was being too subtle. What I meant was that if this rule isn't fixed by the authors/event organizers and its use becomes widespread, FOG will, rightly, become a joke with the predictable consequences on attendance at competitions, at least in Spain.

While we wait for an official errata, we'll be finding our own solution for this problem before the next Spanish competition. I hope something official is sorted out before Britcon 2010 or, God forbid, I'll have to play FOW.

Julian

[dave_r]

As previously stated many times - this was raised prior to publication. I therefore don't expect there to be any official errata anytime shortly.

Certainly not before Britcon 2010.

[babyshark]

This is the first thing in FoG that I think can reasonably be said to be "broken." (Madaxeman's rants about terrain included.) In a general sense, there is no problem: it is merely a mechanism to sort out how troop types that should be able to interpenetrate each other do so in practice. As such, something like this rule must be present in the game, and minor or unintentional instances should not be considered problematic.

In a specific sense, however, it is utterly open to abuse. I spent last night plotting how to use it to zoom a BG of lancers through difficult terrain that would otherwise require multiple moves to clear. Perhaps I will get a chance to use it at the ITC in Lisbon this coming weekend.

And then again, perhaps not. Could we, as a FoG community, come to an understanding that "warp speed" movement is outside the pale? That it is something that we will all agree not to deliberately employ, at least in its abusive forms? Obviously this will be difficult to recognize and enforce, as there will always be non-abusive instances of warp speed, and a gray area as a result.

Comments?

Marc

[dave_r]

And then again, perhaps not. Could we, as a FoG community, come to an understanding that "warp speed" movement is outside the pale?

In an ideal world.... Here are the problems:

1. Not everybody subscribes to this list
2. What happens when this situation "just happens" and was not done intentionally?
3. Self enforcement tends to only work when the result doesn't matter. It tends not to work when it is bloody important that you gain that extra distance
4. This was raised prior to publication and the Authors are aware of the issue
5. Since there are inherent problems with deploying in column, it is nearly self administered to an extent
6. If it was that important it would have been grumped about earlier than 18 months after publication

I think the best example is elephants zooming through a wood

[deadtorius]

Never occured to me before and now that it has been brought up it is open to abuse since everyone knows about it. I won't use it myself and will hope my opponent won't try it either. I don't think there is any game out there that is not open to some kind of legal rules abuse, it is a fact of life, lets just hope it does not get out of hand and we can all enjoy playing the game still.