About the Crécy scenario

[Paul59]

I've played it in the yesterday and I can say it's way more better than the official Crécy scenario.I just don't understand why the scenario designer can't do like this,I mean,simply preserve the historical conditions while modified the victory conditions instead of artificially switched some historical conditions to make it "balanced",I hope the designer could bear that in mind in the future.

Just to set the record straight, Revised victory condition levels have already been used in the following FOG2 Medieval scenarios;

Legnano
Arsuf (Ayyubid)
Manzikert (Byzantine)
Aljubarrota (Portuguese)

and I will continue to use them when the situation warrants it.

I did not use it for Crecy because I decided it was not necessary, nor, in 5 months of Beta testing did anyone suggest it.

[Dux Limitis]

I've played it in the yesterday and I can say it's way more better than the official Crécy scenario.I just don't understand why the scenario designer can't do like this,I mean,simply preserve the historical conditions while modified the victory conditions instead of artificially switched some historical conditions to make it "balanced",I hope the designer could bear that in mind in the future.

Just to set the record straight, Revised victory condition levels have already been used in the following FOG2 Medieval scenarios;

Legnano
Arsuf (Ayyubid)
Manzikert (Byzantine)
Aljubarrota (Portuguese)

and I will continue to use them when the situation warrants it.

I did not use it for Crecy because I decided it was not necessary, nor, in 5 months of Beta testing did anyone suggest it.

If I had accessed to the beta test I'll certainly suggest about it,I regard the historical matters above everything(It's the main selling point of the game,actually,or folks will just go play the Total War),and now I feel I'm one of the fews in this forum crying about such problems because most of the players just don't care.Also,I usually won't suggest about the things without the evidence supports nowadays.I don't know you have seen it or not,but I posted a topic about the handgunners' armour ratings(It's already been deleted for the NDA policy at that time,but in the final version of the DLC their armour ratings changed to protected as I suggested)according a screenshot of the beta version's Storm of Arrows DLC from my friend(I won't tell his name for the privacy).Unfortunately as a years old FoG player they denied my application for beta test every time(Including the Medieval base game's).

[Cronos09]

Sorry. I made a mistake with the VC in the modded version of the scenario. Now I fixed it. Yandex link is the same (I uploaded the fixed version today).
Google drive link with the fixed version (available upon request).

[tyronec]

I gave the standard scenario a try and it seems quite possible to get a good win as the English. The Genoese did little harm before they were taken out and got to 40% before much of the French army got into actoion.

Crecy.jpg (545.75 KiB) Viewed 2119 times

[Dux Limitis]

Sorry. I made a mistake with the VC in the modded version of the scenario. Now I fixed it. Yandex link is the same (I uploaded the fixed version today).
Google drive link with the fixed version https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Thanks.

[Dux Limitis]

I gave the standard scenario a try and it seems quite possible to get a good win as the English. The Genoese did little harm before they were taken out and got to 40% before much of the French army got into actoion.Crecy.jpg

You didn't even read the article,it's not about the win or what,infact I had a win when playing the France which already mentioned in above.It's about the designer of the scenario artificially switched some historical conditions which made the Crécy scenario became a "what if" or an "alternative history"scenario in the game,and those historical conditions could be easily preserved according to the example which the Cronos09 made.

[Dux Limitis]

I gave the standard scenario a try and it seems quite possible to get a good win as the English. The Genoese did little harm before they were taken out and got to 40% before much of the French army got into actoion.Crecy.jpg

(Sorry about some of my network problems the last reply been posted for twice,my mistake)*

[tyronec]

You didn't even read the article,it's not about the win or what,infact I had a win when I'm playing the France which already mentioned in above.It's about the designer of the scenario artificially switched some historical conditions which made the Crécy scenario became a "what if" or an "alternative history"scenario in the game,and those historical conditions could be easily preserved according to the example which the Cronos09 made.

I read this bit, in my game the Genoese were easily routed using maybe 20% of the available ammo.

But in game,as you see in the pics,the Genoese are really tough(One of them took a full arc round but still held firm),even you routed some of them but the most still left,and some of them even breach into the town of Crécy,which is hilarious,later on they fight alongside the French MAAs.And,if you wasted too many ammo on them in the initial turns you may not have enough ammos to shoot the MAAs,because the longbowmen only have 5 turns of ammo.I think if they really acted like that in history,the Philip VI won't order theirs excutions.

[Dux Limitis]

You didn't even read the article,it's not about the win or what,infact I had a win when I'm playing the France which already mentioned in above.It's about the designer of the scenario artificially switched some historical conditions which made the Crécy scenario became a "what if" or an "alternative history"scenario in the game,and those historical conditions could be easily preserved according to the example which the Cronos09 made.

I read this bit, in my game the Genoese were easily routed using maybe 20% of the available ammo.

But in game,as you see in the pics,the Genoese are really tough(One of them took a full arc round but still held firm),even you routed some of them but the most still left,and some of them even breach into the town of Crécy,which is hilarious,later on they fight alongside the French MAAs.And,if you wasted too many ammo on them in the initial turns you may not have enough ammos to shoot the MAAs,because the longbowmen only have 5 turns of ammo.I think if they really acted like that in history,the Philip VI won't order theirs excutions.

Usually they won't be routed that easily unless the cohesion favours you or you spend a lot of arrows on them,I tried multiple times about that,the worst situation already been posted on the top.

[tyronec]

I used unhistorical tactics - disrupted a few with firepower and then charged them with Hobilars etc. They did almost no damage and still enough arrows for the Knights. PvP this looks tough for the English.

[Paul59]

It's about the designer of the scenario artificially switched some historical conditions which made the Crécy scenario became a "what if" or an "alternative history"scenario in the game,

That is nonsense!

Here is a list of all the adjustments made to the game's standard settings:

Genoese Crossbowmen reduced to Below Average (instead of Average),
Genoese Crossbowmen reduced to Lightly Protected (instead of Some Armour),
French Men at Arms reduced to Heavily Armoured (instead of Fully Armoured),
English Longbowmen in forward positions upgraded to Armoured (instead of Protected)

Plus, in the French and MP player scenarios:
Genoese Crossbowmen have only one turn of full ammo (instead of 5),
No infantry reinforcements at all,
English Longbowmen upgraded to Above Average (instead of Average) (Not in MP).

So, to conclude, all the adjustments benefit the English!

[Dux Limitis]

It's about the designer of the scenario artificially switched some historical conditions which made the Crécy scenario became a "what if" or an "alternative history"scenario in the game,

That is nonsense!

Here is a list of all the adjustments made to the game's standard settings:

Genoese Crossbowmen reduced to Below Average (instead of Average),
Genoese Crossbowmen reduced to Lightly Protected (instead of Some Armour),
French Men at Arms reduced to Heavily Armoured (instead of Fully Armoured),
English Longbowmen in forward positions upgraded to Armoured (instead of Protected)

Plus, in the French and MP player scenarios:
Genoese Crossbowmen have only one turn of full ammo (instead of 5),
No infantry reinforcements at all,
English Longbowmen upgraded to Above Average (instead of Average) (Not in MP).

So, to conclude, all the adjustments benefit the English!

Not being disrespect,but am I wrong?

The downgrades of the Genoese didn't work that well as expected.They should break after withstand a round of longbow or the French MAAs get close to them as the Cronos09 did,to better simulate the historical circumstances.And even they had those downgrades they still can do flanking maneuvers on the English right.Or can just act as the cannon fodders to consume the English arrows for five turns.

I didn't point out the French MAAs armour ratings yet because that don't affair much to the scenario.But if you give them downgrade just because they "all" ride the bared horses,then I think most of the Late Medieval MAAs will downgrade into heavily armoured(Serously,any source claimed they all ride the bared horses except of most of the manuscripts' appearances?And some manuscripts from the 13th century already shown the chainmail horse armours.I read Geoffrey the Baker wrote later in Poitiers The Earl of Oxford led a group of the longbowmen to shot the flank of the Marshal Jean de Clermont's mounted MAAs because the frontal attacks were useless to them).

You could simply modified the cohesion of the Genoese,give more rounds of arrow for the longbowmen,change the victory condition for the French(60%,they launched 14 attacks and suffered heavy losses including 1200 knights in the history)while keep the others untoched.It's way more easy to make,and can better simulate the historical accordances while keep the game remains challenging,instead of artificially switch the historical conditions which make the scenario weird,even these "adjustments" are benefit the English.Nobody suggested about it in 5 months of Beta testing did not mean the problems are not exist,it just because most of the players don't care about such things.Just as what you see in some replies,if they could "win" the scenario in standard difficulty or above,then that means the scenario has "no problem" to them(Someone even want the Agincourt scenario be like this).

But,as the Cronos09 already made a mod to make the Crécy scenario way more historical,I think the problems are solved,although I wanna see an official version of it.

[Cronos09]

Dux Limitis, why are you attacking Paul like that? I realize that you like military history and know about the HYW history very much. Paul is a brilliant designer of FoG2 epic scenarios. And the original Crécy scenario is his view of the battle and its balance was tested. The Crécy original suits me too. I wrote about it above. If its modded version suits you play it, please. Why impose it on other players? Moreover, the balance of the modified scenario should be tested for a long time.
Making the Crécy modification for me is just a warm-up for the mind and the desire to work with the game scripts.
Let's respect each other's opinions during this difficult time.

[gribol]

Dux Limitis, why are you attacking Paul like that?

Because Dux is an asshole

[Dux Limitis]

Dux Limitis, why are you attacking Paul like that? I realize that you like military history and know about the HYW history very much. Paul is a brilliant designer of FoG2 epic scenarios. And the original Crécy scenario is his view of the battle and its balance was tested. The Crécy original suits me too. I wrote about it above. If its modded version suits you play it, please. Why impose it on other players? Moreover, the balance of the modified scenario should be tested for a long time.
Making the Crécy modification for me is just a warm-up for the mind and the desire to work with the game scripts.
Let's respect each other's opinions during this difficult time.

It's not an offensive,as you see,I said "not being disrespect"at the beginning of the reply then I only listed some historical stuffs and nothing personal to him,why would you think I'm attacking him?Does this forum don't allow anyone to point out the mistakes and complaining about something of the dev or the designer?Especially it's a historical game,I thought they always placed the historical accuracy at the first,not like some Total War trashes.

If you really think I attacked the Paul and he thinks so then I can make an apology to him.About the scenario,what I wanna say was said,too much.And,I need to thank you again for provide a mod to solve those historical problems of the scenario,I'm personally very grateful for that.

Perhaps my words are somewhat stiff,I'll try to moderate my words in the future.

[gribol]

Recently I've played the Crécy scenario in the new DLC's epic battles,but I found there's one thing that contrary to the history:those Genoese crossbowmen in the scenario.Multiple historical sources claimed they were routed in the initial phase of the battle then trampled or cutted down by French MAAs in the order of the king when in flee.

The Chronicle by Jean Froissart reads:"At this the English archers took one pace forward and poured out their arrows on the Genoese so thickly and evenly that they fell like snow. When they felt those arrows piercing their arms, their heads, their faces, the Genoese, who had never met such archers before,were thrown into confusion. Many cut their bowstrings and some threw down their crossbows.They began to fall back.Between them and the main body of the French there was a hedge of knights, splendidly mounted and armed, who had been watching their discomture and now cut o their retreat. For the King of France, seeing how miserably they had performed, called out ingreat anger: ‘Quick now, kill all that rabble. They are only getting in our way!’Thereupon the mounted men began to strike out at them on all sides and many staggered and fell, never to rise again. The English continued to shoot into the thickest part of the crowd, wasting none of their arrows. They impaled or wounded horses and riders, who fell to the ground in great distress, unable to get up again without the help of several men."

Jean le Bel's account:"The officers of the crossbowmen and the auxiliaries and Genoese (who) ordered their men to advance, and to go ahead of the lords’ battalions initially and shoot at the English. They advanced so close that they were soon exchanging dense volleys, and it wasn’t long before the Genoese and auxiliaries were thrown into disorder by the English archers and started to fly."

Sir John of Hainault(A participant of the battle):"But the great lords’ battalions were so fired by their rivalry with one another that they didn’t wait for each other but charged in a jumbled mass, with no order whatever, trapping the Genoese and auxiliaries between themselves and the English, so they couldn’t flee but fell under the charging horses and were trampled by the seething horde behind – they were tumbling over each other like a vast litter of pigs. At the same time the English archers were loosing such awesome volleys that the horses were riddled by the dreadful barbed arrows; some refused to go on, others leapt wildly, some viciously lashed and kicked, others turned tail despite their masters’ efforts, and others collapsed as the arrows struck, unable to endure.Then the English lords – who were dismounted – advanced and fell upon these men, as helpless as their horses."

But in game,as you see in the pics,the Genoese are really tough(One of them took a full arc round but still held firm),even you routed some of them but the most still left,and some of them even breach into the town of Crécy,which is hilarious,later on they fight alongside the French MAAs.And,if you wasted too many ammo on them in the initial turns you may not have enough ammos to shoot the MAAs,because the longbowmen only have 5 turns of ammo.I think if they really acted like that in history,the Philip VI won't order theirs excutions.

So I think better adjust the scenario for a bit,like:
They'll break after a volly and won't rally.
Or(If the first one is impossible for the programming),give the longbowmen 10-15 turns of ammo so they can rout the Genoese meanwhile got enough of ammo left for the MAAs.

Would you like to consider the possibility, that those Genoese wasnt fleeing, but more likely retreating (falling back) to regroup?
In fact, they were highly proffesional mercenaries, that dont like to be killed so easily. French avangarde was "suprised" by theirs cousins from rainy islands, and those crossbowmens must attack straight from marching position without pavises and with unprepaired chords/strings.
After first few volleys they want to fall back, regroup, take pavises and attack again, but impatient blind knights with blind horses commanded by blind king just trample them without any sense and understanding of war rules.

So, the first thing is, that Its hard to show the "trampling" in this game.
The second thing is, that for me it is an oversimplication to accept, that Genoese were fleeing in panic afrer first shots, because maybe it is not very historically accurate.
So in fact, the scenario in the game is pretty accurate. Genoese have got worse armor (no pavises), worse morale (unprepaired attack) and they are losing shooting duel with longbowmen pretty quickly.
BTW, please dont belive the medieval chroniclers without a doubts. They are often not very objective.

P. S. Sorry for my awkward english, swearing is easier for me than writing

[fogman]

Fog 1 used to have a large community of scenario writers. Literally hundreds of scenarios pumped out. Multiple versions of the same battle for every taste. Shame they all have disappeared and we're left with mostly gamers.

[Dux Limitis]

Recently I've played the Crécy scenario in the new DLC's epic battles,but I found there's one thing that contrary to the history:those Genoese crossbowmen in the scenario.Multiple historical sources claimed they were routed in the initial phase of the battle then trampled or cutted down by French MAAs in the order of the king when in flee.

The Chronicle by Jean Froissart reads:"At this the English archers took one pace forward and poured out their arrows on the Genoese so thickly and evenly that they fell like snow. When they felt those arrows piercing their arms, their heads, their faces, the Genoese, who had never met such archers before,were thrown into confusion. Many cut their bowstrings and some threw down their crossbows.They began to fall back.Between them and the main body of the French there was a hedge of knights, splendidly mounted and armed, who had been watching their discomture and now cut o their retreat. For the King of France, seeing how miserably they had performed, called out ingreat anger: ‘Quick now, kill all that rabble. They are only getting in our way!’Thereupon the mounted men began to strike out at them on all sides and many staggered and fell, never to rise again. The English continued to shoot into the thickest part of the crowd, wasting none of their arrows. They impaled or wounded horses and riders, who fell to the ground in great distress, unable to get up again without the help of several men."

Jean le Bel's account:"The officers of the crossbowmen and the auxiliaries and Genoese (who) ordered their men to advance, and to go ahead of the lords’ battalions initially and shoot at the English. They advanced so close that they were soon exchanging dense volleys, and it wasn’t long before the Genoese and auxiliaries were thrown into disorder by the English archers and started to fly."

Sir John of Hainault(A participant of the battle):"But the great lords’ battalions were so fired by their rivalry with one another that they didn’t wait for each other but charged in a jumbled mass, with no order whatever, trapping the Genoese and auxiliaries between themselves and the English, so they couldn’t flee but fell under the charging horses and were trampled by the seething horde behind – they were tumbling over each other like a vast litter of pigs. At the same time the English archers were loosing such awesome volleys that the horses were riddled by the dreadful barbed arrows; some refused to go on, others leapt wildly, some viciously lashed and kicked, others turned tail despite their masters’ efforts, and others collapsed as the arrows struck, unable to endure.Then the English lords – who were dismounted – advanced and fell upon these men, as helpless as their horses."

But in game,as you see in the pics,the Genoese are really tough(One of them took a full arc round but still held firm),even you routed some of them but the most still left,and some of them even breach into the town of Crécy,which is hilarious,later on they fight alongside the French MAAs.And,if you wasted too many ammo on them in the initial turns you may not have enough ammos to shoot the MAAs,because the longbowmen only have 5 turns of ammo.I think if they really acted like that in history,the Philip VI won't order theirs excutions.

So I think better adjust the scenario for a bit,like:
They'll break after a volly and won't rally.
Or(If the first one is impossible for the programming),give the longbowmen 10-15 turns of ammo so they can rout the Genoese meanwhile got enough of ammo left for the MAAs.

Would you like to consider the possibility, that those Genoese wasnt fleeing, but more likely retreating (falling back) to regroup?
In fact, they were highly proffesional mercenaries, that dont like to be killed so easily. French avangarde was "suprised" by theirs cousins from rainy islands, and those crossbowmens must attack straight from marching position without pavises and with unprepaired chords/strings.
After first few volleys they want to fall back, regroup, take pavises and attack again, but impatient blind knights with blind horses commanded by blind king just trample them without any sense and understanding of war rules.

So, the first thing is, that Its hard to show the "trampling" in this game.
The second thing is, that for me it is an oversimplication to accept, that Genoese were fleeing in panic afrer first shots, because maybe it is not very historically accurate.
So in fact, the scenario in the game is pretty accurate. Genoese have got worse armor (no pavises), worse morale (unprepaired attack) and they are losing shooting duel with longbowmen pretty quickly.
BTW, please dont belive the medieval chroniclers without a doubts. They are often not very objective.

P. S. Sorry for my awkward english, swearing is easier for me than writing

But you should know,there's not only the Froissart claimed so(He's the representative though),there're multiple sources from that time claimed the same(Not only from the chroniclers)including some I didn't list here.If most of the sources claimed the Genoese were fall back in disarray quickly after been outmatched by the longbowmen,then trampped down by the French MAAs,that means it's most likely the truth of initial phase of the battle.And don't forget,even they were proffesional mercenaries,but they were still lowborns in the eyes of the nobles,as the transcripts of their dialogues revealed.Same as the Free Companies,the nobles usually regarded them as pillagers and bandits,as their heralds were generally looked upon with disdain by the others.

About how to simulate the "trampling" effects in the game,I think the Cronos09 has already given us a good example.

[Dux Limitis]

Fog 1 used to have a large community of scenario writers. Literally hundreds of scenarios pumped out. Multiple versions of the same battle for every taste. Shame they all have disappeared and we're left with mostly gamers.

Yeah,pretty shame about it.And most of the gamers don't care about the historical things(Of a historical game).Too bad I'm not good at moddings.

[gribol]

If most of the sources claimed the Genoese were fall back in disarray quickly after been outmatched by the longbowmen,then trampped down by the French MAAs,that means it's most likely the truth of initial phase of the battle.

Yes, we agree. They attack, take some volleys and retreat. But i think, that we dont agree about the reason, why they were retreating. Most of sources (and i think, that you too) think, that Genoese were just cowards and want to flee. Some sources (and thats also my oppinion) thinks, that faced with a significant advantage of enemies, those professionals want to retreat in order to fight in more equal circumstances, which looks like an reasonable decision.
No matter what the truth is, there were trampled.

But you should know,there's not only the Froissart claimed so(He's the representative though),there're multiple sources from that time claimed the same(Not only from the chroniclers)including some I didn't list here

Yes, of course. But i think, that reading any of chronicles/historicians we must filter they words with logic, objectivism and cohersion, because they often bend the truth, use untested sources, they rewrite one from the other and sometimes they are tools of paid propaganda. Not all in those books is true.

And don't forget,even they were proffesional mercenaries,but they were still lowborns in the eyes of the nobles,as the transcripts of their dialogues revealed.Same as the Free Companies,the nobles usually regarded them as pillagers and bandits,as their heralds were generally looked upon with disdain by the others.

Thats why there were trampled with no remorse. But that doesn't change the fact either, that they were professionals known and appreciated throughout Europe for their skills.

About how to simulate the "trampling" effects in the game,I think the Cronos09 has already given us a good example.

Yes, maybe technically it is possible, but also dangerous. Always when my knights are behind them, they will flee? That is an inflection for the second side, because they limit my maneuverability (i must avoiding my own unis). Making such changes creator must remember about some kind of balance.