Joe v. Morris Round II (Joe's AAR)

[Crazygunner1]

I think it's easy to win with axis...

I would like you to show me when you have free slot - I lost only once as Allies in my first Allies game. Never happened again.

Well since i have never lost a game as Axis, that´s a challange i accept....never plaid against you i think???

If i play a normal game as the axis....by normal i mean no extra stuff like Sealion or any other operations than actually was. I would say it is easier to win with the Axis than the allies all the time.

[Morris]

I think it's easy to win with axis...

I would like you to show me when you have free slot - I lost only once as Allies in my first Allies game. Never happened again.

Well since i have never lost a game as Axis, that´s a challange i accept....never plaid against you i think???

If i play a normal game as the axis....by normal i mean no extra stuff like Sealion or any other operations than actually was. I would say it is easier to win with the Axis than the allies all the time.

The one who never lost a game as Axis should play a pbem with the one who never lost a game as Allies after his first allies game !

[Morris]

I think we should stop hijacking this AAR. The end result is that GS v2.1 is frozen and we won't alter the game balance. It doesn't matter who believes what.

I don't really mind. What this discussion means to me is that no matter what you do, you can never please everyone. People will always have different viewpoints. So let's just play the game we have and have some fun.

There are thousands of people play this game :
60% of them learn & try to defeat AI
20% of them try to start pbem or hotseat with people ,but lack of experience
15% of them enjoy the pbem & try to play perfect
only less than 5% of them ( maybe only beta testers) are discussing about the game balance .

We discuss about it ,not mean to change it immediately ! We just provide our opinions & experience to share with each other . The only goal of this discussion is to make this game perfect !(although this game is already great ). & We are the only group of people caring about this , if we don't care ,no one will do it & the game engine won't be improved anymore .

[Kragdob]

Well since i have never lost a game as Axis, that´s a challange i accept....

You have my email on PM.

[Cybvep]

Don't forget to make an AAR out of it .

[Crazygunner1]

Don't forget to make an AAR out of it .

Already got one that is going so slow, we have run into so many problems and zechi seems very busy. We probably take a turn a week now....

[supermax]

I think it's easy to win with axis...you can probably put supermax there as well.

Thats 2 more

You said you are the one , you are the one , Although Max is super , we have to hear from himself .
Any way , comparing with thousands of players , 4 is a very very small percentage !

Havent been here for a while now... I read this very interesting AAR and then my name is mentionned! I have to respond lol

I have no serious opinion about the "easier to win axis thing". I used to have one, but not anymore. If you play super conservativly as Axis you have certainly a very good chance to win. I understand that very well. What amazes me is that some players do and redo and redo the same strategies every game they play. As for me, its not about winning in the same way every game, its about trying different stuff. That is kinda why i dont play right now, i just got bored of the way most people just drone their way into playing the same style every game.

The way i see this is that the only thing i regret loosing from previous versions of the game is that the game encourage axis players to go for mediocre goals, that is a minor victory (just keep your capital, herr general, and you win!). So maybee you could say that is why its easier to win as Axis? Maybee, maybee not. Also note for all the 2.1 lovers outhere, please do not take this personnally, its an incredible mod, best game i have ever played.. Its just that after a while its difficult for a "creative" player like me to find other ways to play, so i just get bored.

As for joe Rock, he is certainly one of the best player outhere. When i started to play against him, i used to beat him every time, but then, after that it was not so easy! I won against him only when i was able to get him out of his comfort zone, and that doesnt happen easily or often against his German steamroller strategy / defense.

[Cybvep]

The way i see this is that the only thing i regret loosing from previous versions of the game is that the game encourage axis players to go for mediocre goals, that is a minor victory (just keep your capital, herr general, and you win!).

That's because the whole game is created and balanced with a standard semi-historical playthrough in mind. Deviations from the standard "path" create problems, as the game handles non-standard scenarios poorly. Let's face it - the whole 1942 defensive Barbarossa stuff is BS (German DOWs the SU, the SU gets the -10% surprise modifier and Germany stays on defensive for the whole war... right) and the only reason why the Soviets move their factories in-game, mobilise their forces in late 1941 and join the Allies in 1942 no matter what is that if that didn't happen, the Soviet Union would stay out of war indefinitely, which would allow the Axis to win every time, lol. Late fall of France - a real historical possibility - is rare and when it happens, it usually means that the game is lost for the Axis, because again, everything is balanced with a standard scenario in mind, when France falls quickly. With no real diplomacy, rigid VCs and an old engine, it's hard to change these problems, though.

However, I can come up with at least one thing that could spice the game up - an alternative "score" system, when taking and holding cities, losing MP, inflicting losses etc. would affect your total score, thus motivating the Axis for real action (including Africa - taking and holding Egyptian cities and Suez could increase your score significantly) and making all those "strategies" like using the French, the Italians or the troops of the Axis minor as cannon fodder much less lucrative (because you would lose score).

EDIT: I forgot to mention that despite some shortcomings, CEAW has surprisingly high replayability.

[joerock22]

Turn 56 – September 5, 1942

The Russians retreat again, and this time I cannot catch them. It will soon be time to stop this offensive and dig in for winter, but I still have a few objectives I would like to accomplish.

USSR North





USSR South





Final Tally: just 1 corps destroyed and 4 PPs captured. This offensive is winding to a close…

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I wonder how Morris can talk about the Rostov disaster happening in 1942. You got Rostov with just a Russian corps lost. That is certainly not a disaster.

The real game is some turns ahead of the AAR so I have a feeling that Morris must have counter attacked with all his armor near Rostov only to be crushed by the German panzer reserve nearby. If that's true then it was a very clever move to not move the armor within the Russian spotting range this turn.

Only time will tell I guess.

[joerock22]

Only time will tell I guess.

Yep, give it a couple turns. This is not what Morris was referring to.

[Morris]

Only time will tell I guess.

Yep, give it a couple turns. This is not what Morris was referring to.

why not? Yes ,it will be !

[Cybvep]

why not?

Because losing Rostov in itself is not a disaster, although it means that you will lose some PPs...

[Morris]

why not?

Because losing Rostov in itself is not a disaster, although it means that you will lose some PPs...

It is something happened around there

[peterjfrigate]

"However, I can come up with at least one thing that could spice the game up - an alternative "score" system, when taking and holding cities, losing MP, inflicting losses etc. would affect your total score, thus motivating the Axis for real action (including Africa - taking and holding Egyptian cities and Suez could increase your score significantly) and making all those "strategies" like using the French, the Italians or the troops of the Axis minor as cannon fodder much less lucrative (because you would lose score)."

I completely agree---the old Avalon Hill game Russian Front had a system like this where you counted victory points (i.e. cities held) at the end of every year. Working out the details is another matter...

[joerock22]

Turn 57 – September 25, 1942

Not much to report on any front, so only one screenshot. As you can see, I rethought my defense plan in the south just a little bit. Also, I did not bother scouting out Gorki or Tambov as I am satisfied with my positions and am 95% sure Morris is defending those cities in force. Even if I took one or both I would only swiftly lose them come winter, so it is not worth the oil or manpower expenditure.

Kerch was attacked as planned, however, and Morris allowed me to march into Archangel in the north for free. This was a mistake, as I did not have the forces in the area to capture it if it was defended. Not that Morris knew this, but in my book a 2 PP city is worth spending 15PPs on a garrison to defend. At least make me spend some oil if I want to take it.

(note – Morris later told me he meant to deploy a garrison in Archangel, but forgot. So it was a simple error)

USSR South (post-turn)

[joerock22]

At last, the long-awaited "Rostov Disaster"...

Turn 58 – October 15, 1942

Well, well…it seems Morris wants to get an early start on his winter offensive. Perhaps too early! He advances on both fronts, infantry in the north and mechs/tanks in the south. The weather remains fair into October, which at least gives me more options.

First, I could retreat. This would do me no good, I feel. I am much stronger in this sector than I was last winter.

Secondly, I could hold my ground. This would mean allowing Morris to attack me in fair weather and then trying to retreat or plug holes in bad weather next turn. Not an ideal strategy.

Finally, I could attack. This one greatly appeals to me. Oil levels have risen quickly over the past couple turns, so I can afford it. Many of my heavy units are out of range (because I didn’t spend the oil to move them), but I know I can wipe out the Russian front line and kill at least 1 tank. That would bag me 3 mechs (including 1 Guard), 2 corps, and 1 tank. I can also move my infantry line to the front to protect my heavy units. Morris will have a counterattack chance in fair weather, but with a depleted force.

Ultimately, I choose to attack. The opportunity to destroy 4 Russian heavy units is too tempting to pass up. I do not believe Morris has the tactical bombers necessary to mount a truly effective counterattack against a German double line with infantry in front. My units have good effectiveness, and his are still in the 60s, with hardly any upgrades to corps or mechs yet. Nearly all Russian upgrades have been funneled into tanks, but we’re still basically even (mine are +1 in ground attack, his are +1 in anti-tank attack). Overall, this looks like a good move for me. Both of my flanks will be protected by the river, so a frontal assault will be his only response option. And without the advantage of weather, I do not believe he can win in that kind of battle just yet.

But we shall see! At any rate, perhaps this will take some of the steam out of his winter offensive. I only wish I had moved my heavy units up; then who knows how many tanks I could have killed?! Ah, well, the oil I saved by not moving them means my stockpiles are still above 200 at the end of my turn. It’s give and take.

USSR North (pre-turn)



USSR South

[Cybvep]

Recklessness is clearly Morris' biggest weakness...

Still, some things are worrying:

1. Dogfighting techs. In many games the Axis can maintain air superiority in the East until 1944, here it looks like you will struggle in 1943. Fortunately, you have a good PP income, but when you need to repair many air units often, your budget may be strained quickly!
2. Oil level. If we are talking about a 200+ stockpile here, the situation is quite serious, especially if there is no respite during winter.

[Crazygunner1]

I doubt that neither of the two pints will be an issue. What i have seen from Joe is that he will adapt his strategy to the situation no matter how it looks. So far he has spent oil on situations that will gain him an upper hand in this game, doubt that will change.

If Joe slows down during this winter he will save around 40 barrels/turn * 7 turns and that is about 280 barrels. Makes around 500 barrels for 43 summer action. I am quite confident that Joe will secure the oilfields in the south in 43 also.

If Joe is active during winter like winter 41 then he will have an easier summer 43 campaing and can probably let a lot of his oil driven units stay put and only use in case of emergency.

To my detriment...i think we are seeing "the coffin nailed shut" for this game....Morris will have such a hard time to gain any kind of initiative in the east for the next year....and if you are not fighting for the initiative on the eastern front with the russians in 43 you won´t make it to Berlin before 45...it´s just to far.

Joe...i am really looking forward to our game...this will be most exciting to see what aces up your sleave you have got in store! I am gonna have to be at my best in order to beat you....perhaps it will be a nail biter like last game????

Crazyg

[Cybvep]

If Joe slows down during this winter he will save around 40 barrels/turn * 7 turns and that is about 280 barrels. Makes around 500 barrels for 43 summer action. I am quite confident that Joe will secure the oilfields in the south in 43 also.

If Joe is active during winter like winter 41 then he will have an easier summer 43 campaing and can probably let a lot of his oil driven units stay put and only use in case of emergency.

I doubt that Joe will take the Caucasus. He wouldn't be able to hold it for long, anyway. Most likely, he would have to spend more oil to take Caucasus than he would gain out of it.

and if you are not fighting for the initiative on the eastern front with the russians in 43 you won´t make it to Berlin before 45

Right... Wasn't Joe the one who was pushed back to Omsk by Morris and then he counter-attacked and actually won the game?