Chaos Tourney V

[rbodleyscott]

Will you be adding Medieval armies to the dice roll next season?

That's a good question; I've heard mixed reviews on the timewarp battles thus far. My initial impression is folks feel HM armies are significantly better. I've not set up any such games myself, so no first hand experience as of yet.

Karvon

It would be a bit harsh to have to play an Ancient/Dark Age lancer army (Vandals!) against a knights army. I think I would just concede.

I would be against it myself.

For one thing, you would be requiring players to own both games. For another, you would have to do a preliminary die roll to determine which game to use for a matchup, as Medieval won't match pre-1000 AD armies vs pre-1000 AD armies.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Hmm fair point. Maybe we should just have separate Medieval Chaos Tourney once at least one dlc is out to flesh out the number of army lists

[Karvon]

It would be a bit harsh to have to play an Ancient/Dark Age lancer army (Vandals!) against a knights army. I think I would just concede.

I would be against it myself.

For one thing, you would be requiring players to own both games. For another, you would have to do a preliminary die roll to determine which game to use for a matchup, as Medieval won't match pre-1000 AD armies vs pre-1000 AD armies.

I suspect most of the people playing in CT probably own both games, or will by the time the next CT rolls around.

Rolling matchups isn't an issue since I don't use the game engine to do that; I have a list of all the armies in a spreadsheet and use a randomize function to generate the matchup lists. Obviously, the HM army player would have to set up the match if it was a timewarp game.

The occasional mismatch like Vandal vs some knight army isn't any worse than some already possible, so that doesn't concern me so much. My concern is more of point value vs point value between the two games; some troops seem to cost the same in both, so I'm thinking the relative point comparison is probably close?

In any case, I'll await more feedback from those who've tried timewarp games and try a few out myself and see how it works out.

Karvon

[rbodleyscott]

The occasional mismatch like Vandal vs some knight army isn't any worse than some already possible, so that doesn't concern me so much. My concern is more of point value vs point value between the two games; some troops seem to cost the same in both, so I'm thinking the relative point comparison is probably close?

There are significant adjustments to the points system in FOG2: Medieval, but in the Time Warp module the revised points costs apply to Ancient as well as Medieval units, so that should not really be an issue.

The main changes are that all non-knight cavalry, and some infantry (offensive spearmen, heavy weapon) are cheaper in FOG2: Medieval. That should go some way towards mitigating any disadvantage certain Ancient troop types should have.

Nevertheless, armies of lancers, warbands, irregular foot will have a hard time against knights. Romans can hold their own surprisingly well. Pikes ought to be fairly knight-proof. Horse archer armies could do well, because of the points cost reduction. Elephants are nemesis to knights.

[Karvon]

Appreciate your insights Richard. ATM, I'm leaning towards including HM next time, but will try a few games and solicit feedback from players before making a final decision one way or the other.

Karvon

[Aetius39]

Division 1 Regular

Aetius39 (Irish) defeats blagrot (Indo-Greek) 42-16

Irish basically just had mediums against the phalanx Greek war machine, so they managed to hide in a large forest in the north-center of the map. The Indo-Greeks bravely followed, but in the forest the Irish could fight fairly well, and also they froze some more powerful units outside the forest who were next to it. The Irish went for the weaker units like the archers, and at the end could pull out a victory. GG Blagrot and thanks for playing!

[Aetius39]

Mirror Match

Aetius39 (Anglo-Saxon) defeats Blagrot (Byzantine) 59-28

Strange mirror matches in that both games the Byzantines were winning well mid-game, and then just got destroyed after. The second game of this match almost surely will go to my opponent, so besides that game I am finished with all games in the tourney. Thanks it was fun!

[Blagrot]

And it did go to me - Blagrot (Anglo-Saxon) beat Aetius39 (Byzantine) 60% - 45%

Good start from the byzantines until the saxons got into stabbing range, then it didn't go so well for them even if the first few charges mostly bounced

[pompeytheflatulent]

Appreciate your insights Richard. ATM, I'm leaning towards including HM next time, but will try a few games and solicit feedback from players before making a final decision one way or the other.

Karvon

For what it's worth I just got done crushing a French post 1155 army with a Viking 900 army. I have another game going against the same French list as Babylonian Revolts and I don't see a way for the French to win on account of the terrain. So I think it'll be fine. If anything, I think some of the knight-centric lists won't be able to hack it in Early Middle Ages. After all of the experience dealing with lancer shenanigans in EMA, trapping and killing knights in spearmen sandwiches feels like child's play in comparison.

[Karvon]

We've still got a few games to finish, so please try to do so ASAP as we're nearly at our original deadline.

Regards,

Karvon

[SnuggleBunnies]

For what it's worth I just got done crushing a French post 1155 army with a Viking 900 army. I have another game going against the same French list as Babylonian Revolts and I don't see a way for the French to win on account of the terrain. So I think it'll be fine. If anything, I think some of the knight-centric lists won't be able to hack it in Early Middle Ages. After all of the experience dealing with lancer shenanigans in EMA, trapping and killing knights in spearmen sandwiches feels like child's play in comparison.

I've been doing some French 1155 timewarp matches vs Geffalrus and the French are getting crushed 4 games in a row now. I think the French list in general is just bad - terrible Mediums, only xbows for ranged, no Dismounted Knights or other decent infantry. It's just Knights, Spearmen, and Crossbowmen. Other Medieval armies have more flex in them.

[Karvon]

Most of the medieval lists are pretty blah for my tastes; they don't have much in the way of light or medium food and lack light horse. There are a few nice ones, but majority of them I would never pick to play.

[rbodleyscott]

Most of the medieval lists are pretty blah for my tastes; they don't have much in the way of light or medium food and lack light horse. There are a few nice ones, but majority of them I would never pick to play.

Of course they were never intended to have to play Ancient opponents. The game is only balanced (to the extent that it is) against contemporary opponents. There has been no attempt to balance Medieval armies vs Ancient armies, and there won't be.

Time Warp is just intended to be "a bit of fun". Like the Chaos Tourney, of course.

[pompeytheflatulent]

I've been doing some French 1155 timewarp matches vs Geffalrus and the French are getting crushed 4 games in a row now. I think the French list in general is just bad - terrible Mediums, only xbows for ranged, no Dismounted Knights or other decent infantry. It's just Knights, Spearmen, and Crossbowmen. Other Medieval armies have more flex in them.

But what other list allows you to have a dozen knights in a medium size game? The only way to even approach that in terms of sheer entertainment would be to have German with German allies so you can rock the double wagon.

[Karvon]

Most of the medieval lists are pretty blah for my tastes; they don't have much in the way of light or medium food and lack light horse. There are a few nice ones, but majority of them I would never pick to play.

Of course they were never intended to have to play Ancient opponents. The game is only balanced (to the extent that it is) against contemporary opponents. There has been no attempt to balance Medieval armies vs Ancient armies, and there won't be.

Time Warp is just intended to be "a bit of fun". Like the Chaos Tourney, of course.

Yeah, I realize that; I was speaking simply of my preferences within HMA itself.

[deeter]

For what it's worth, I dislike the medieval armies on offer and don't want to command one, so I vote to keep Chaos ancients only.

Deeter

[Aetius39]

It's just my opinion, but I'd prefer to keep them separate, too.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Well I'd enjoy throwing the medieval armies in as well, especially as DLCs come along.

[deeter]

Deeter (Sparta) defeats Karvon (Rome) 46-12.

Deeter

[deeter]

Deeter (Sparta) defeats Karvon (Rome) 46-12.

Deeter