Guille's PzCorps Support Base - Multipurpose Icons and more.

[guille1434]

Hello Cw!

I am glad you liked the rail transporter for the Karl Gerat siege howitzer... About its movement value I would consider the following:

- The railroad transport has a movement value of 30 (which, in my opinion is too high)
- The vanilla game Armored Train has a movement of 10 hexes.
- This monster had a very high weight, 123 tons for the howitzer and its chasis plus the weight of the rail transport bogies, so, I would say it would add up to at least 140 - 150 tons. A train which has such a heavy load per axle should move at a relatively low speed because if not, it would damage railroads and specially bridges.

Bearing all this in mind, I would give it a movement of 8... Or if you think this is too low, may be you prefer to move up the armored train movement to 12 and give this unit a movement = 10

Ps: I also attach a nice photograph of a scale model of this vehicle.
Greetings!!

[cw58]

Nice pic. And a move of 8 works for me.

[cw58]

From another photograph with a more straight-on point-of-view, it looked like the gun is totally suspended/supported by the rail cars on either side; the gun vehicle itself doesn't touch the rails. Is that so?

[guille1434]

Yes, this is correct... The whole huge vehicle was suspended using the two heavy girders, which in turn were supported by the two pilons placed over the center of each railroad bogie (each one of those had five axles). The pilons could rotate in order to allow the complete rig to take bends in the railroads. Given all this, the Karl howitzer travelled suspended over the ground and it was not in contact with the rails or the ground under it while being transported.

[guille1434]

An improved version of the icon...

[guille1434]

Hello:

Inspired by the various railway guns icons previews uploaded in the Pak mod thread, I decide to improve the two small brothers of the German family of railway guns... The 15 cm and 17 cm Kanone (E).
Enjoy!!

[guille1434]

And the 17 cm gun...

[guille1434]

A "what if" air unit... The He-111Z-2 bomber...

[cw58]

I have tried without success to change the "Armour. Train" tag to "Siege Artillery". I changed the string text file and everywhere else I could think of. All of other areas of the mod say "Siege Artillery", just not on this detail page.

Success! I'm guessing the original class "slots" are hard-coded but not the description. I'll post pics that I think will describe what worked and what didn't. But the description of a brand-new class (night fighter in the "strings" pic) worked just fine.

class name.jpg (163.24 KiB) Viewed 3173 times

strings.jpg (319.7 KiB) Viewed 3173 times

[uzbek2012]

Yes that's right )
http://www.bellabs.ru/30-35/Dora-Karl.html




How will you take Dora ?

Railway artillery of the Soviet Union
http://zonwar.ru/artileru/rail_gun_5.html
https://en.topwar.ru/7870-zheleznodoroz ... oyuza.html
Great )
https://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3265963277/69

[guille1434]

Thanks Uzbek for the interesting links. I did not know about the big Soviert railroad guns...

Cw58: Congratulations for the research and discovery of a way to mod the unit class label! (more comments on this later).

Greetings!

[cw58]

Hi Guille

I just thought I would give you an update. The classes are performing as expected. All the rail guns will show up for purchase in the rail class(17) and can be switched to the appropriate class: artillery(4) or siege artillery(18), depending on whether I want the unit to be able to provide supporting fire; of course, either class will cause suppression. I'm using the first switch (class 17) for movement and then switching to fire mode. If one wanted to better simulate the time taken to set up a rail gun for firing, set the ammo value of the rail gun to 0. Then when it switches to firing mode, it will require 1 turn to supply and then be able to fire on the following turn. Here's a pic of the purchase screen:

purchase.jpg (282.65 KiB) Viewed 3128 times

Now I need to come up with a couple better purchase icons.

[guille1434]

Hello Cw!

Thanks for the update... I was thinking about how to organize the different types of units visually (purchase screen) and by function (unit class). I started to design a somewhat complicated "system" but you have presented here a simpler (better) system. Nevertheless, I would like to define some matters. Let me explain...

Now, the "visual organization" of units in the purchase screen would be as you suggest:

- Siege Artillery (former unit class #18 "Armoured Train"): Very heavy land based (i.e. non-railroad) artillery units with long term suppression ability.

- Rail Gun (former unit class #17 "Rail Transport"): Lesser calibre, turreted railroad guns (for example 15 cm K(E) and 17 cm K(E)), different kind of armoured trains proper, like the vanilla game unit, Flak railroad unit, "Infantry carrier" railcars, etc... With ability to switch to Artillery class (#4) to provide ranged fire and support fire ability to adjacent units (when appropiate).

My question would be related about large caliber railroad guns, which I think should be able to provide long term suppression over targets, but not defensive fire to adjacent units... Where would you put them?

a) Visible for purchasing in the Rail Gun class, in a non-fire switch and making them "switchable" to a fire capable unit in the #18 class (but not visible in the purchase screen)?

Or...
b) Just make them visible/purchasable in the Siege Artillery (#18) and group them together with the land based large caliber artillery units?

Visually speaking, option a) would give us all railroad guns all grouped together in the "Rail Gun" menu, but mixed also with armoured trains, and super-heavy land artillery units grouped in the "Siege Arty" menu. Option b) would give us armoured trains and "light" railroad guns (with the same function in battle as regular field artillery) grouped in the "Rail Gun" menu and ALL the super heavy artillery (rail and non-rail based) with long term suppression grouped in the "Siege Arty" menu. Whats do you think is best considering pros and cons of each possibility?

PS 1: I like very much your idea about "0 ammo" value to simulate longer preparing and firing times for very heavy units.
PS 2: I will try to make a new small purchase screen icon for the purchase screen, what other icon of this class you think would be necessary?

Thanks!!!

[guille1434]

On to air units now... I think I have read that it was being planned to add British Mustang aircraft to the Battlefield Europe mod unit roster. By the way, British Mustangs were (till now) neglected, but I think they played an important role in RAF service. In fact, the RAF was employing some variants of the Mustang before the USAAF started operations in Europe.

Here are the icons for the bubble canopied Mustangs in RAF colors... Enjoy!!

[cw58]

Hello Cw!

Thanks for the update... I was thinking about how to organize the different types of units visually (purchase screen) and by function (unit class). I started to design a somewhat complicated "system" but you have presented here a simpler (better) system. Nevertheless, I would like to define some matters. Let me explain...

Now, the "visual organization" of units in the purchase screen would be as you suggest:

- Siege Artillery (former unit class #18 "Armoured Train"): Very heavy land based (i.e. non-railroad) artillery units with long term suppression ability.

- Rail Gun (former unit class #17 "Rail Transport"): Lesser calibre, turreted railroad guns (for example 15 cm K(E) and 17 cm K(E)), different kind of armoured trains proper, like the vanilla game unit, Flak railroad unit, "Infantry carrier" railcars, etc... With ability to switch to Artillery class (#4) to provide ranged fire and support fire ability to adjacent units (when appropiate).

My question would be related about large caliber railroad guns, which I think should be able to provide long term suppression over targets, but not defensive fire to adjacent units... Where would you put them?

a) Visible for purchasing in the Rail Gun class, in a non-fire switch and making them "switchable" to a fire capable unit in the #18 class (but not visible in the purchase screen)?

Or...
b) Just make them visible/purchasable in the Siege Artillery (#18) and group them together with the land based large caliber artillery units?

Visually speaking, option a) would give us all railroad guns all grouped together in the "Rail Gun" menu, but mixed also with armoured trains, and super-heavy land artillery units grouped in the "Siege Arty" menu. Option b) would give us armoured trains and "light" railroad guns (with the same function in battle as regular field artillery) grouped in the "Rail Gun" menu and ALL the super heavy artillery (rail and non-rail based) with long term suppression grouped in the "Siege Arty" menu. Whats do you think is best considering pros and cons of each possibility?

PS 1: I like very much your idea about "0 ammo" value to simulate longer preparing and firing times for very heavy units.
PS 2: I will try to make a new small purchase screen icon for the purchase screen, what other icon of this class you think would be necessary?

Thanks!!!

My suggestion would be for the large calibre rail guns to be purchasable in the rail class. I'm using the first rail class switch as the movement mode with no firing. Then switching to siege artillery for firing mode and not capable of movement. So all trains would be purchasable in the rail section but would switch to another class for their primary function.

Re PS 1: This would also work well with bunker building units.
Re PS 2: I would like to have new icons for classes 17 & 18, if you would be so kind. It's not necessary but I think it would be nice.

[cw58]

Hi Guille,
I will lay out how I plan to implement this in my personal mod. This is very subjective; each person will have their own ideas about what is "realistic" so I think there's plenty of room for debate.

1. Trains: in general, if it travels on rails, it will start out in the rail class (#17)

2. armored train: starts in rail class(17) with full movement, no suppression and direct fire capability with range of 0 (much like Uzbek's tank). Switches to artillery class(4) with full movement, ranged fire, suppresses and can provide supporting fire. I think the direct fire attack values should be higher than indirect values but I have not yet tested the idea of a direct firing train so I am unsure.

3. small rail gun (15cm-17cm): starts in rail class(17) with full movement and no firing capability. Switches to siege artillery(18) with half movement, has ranged fire, suppresses and cannot provide supporting fire. It has the advantage of being able to shoot & move or move & shoot, unlike large rail guns.

4. large rail gun (28cm+): starts in rail class(17) with full movement (though less than small rail guns) and no firing capability. Switches to siege artillery(18) with no movement, has ranged fire, suppresses and cannot provide supporting fire.

5. siege artillery: starts in siege arty class(18) with no movement, has ranged fire, suppresses and cannot provide supporting fire. Switches to a large prime mover(class 14) with low movement and no firing capability.

The big question for me is where to draw the line between artillery and siege artillery: is it everything over 15 cm? 21 cm? 24 cm? I'm running tests and right now the line is everything over 24 cm. But I have given the 24 cm K3 it's own switched transport (no organic transport) and a move of 0. So it must either shoot or move, not shoot and move.

I am trying to find a balance between "realism" and play-ability. I want there to be advantages and disadvantages for each of the different units. So I will continue testing and tweaking. Enough rambling already!

[uzbek2012]

In addition to armored trains were still heavy brunettino how do you intend to implement them ?

https://wwii.space/bronepoezda-i-bronedrezinyi-sssr/
Motobronevagon MBV-2

https://en.topwar.ru/147918-rasskazy-ob ... mbv-2.html

http://www.wio.ru/rr/ww2bdr.htm

[cw58]

Hi Uzbek,
I followed your links and all I can say is that's a lot of armored trains; and a lot of variety.

Addressing your question of how to implement them. The armored car in the 2nd link is the easiest. Take the armored car and give it a switch that has rail movement. Done. And keep that recon movement. Very handy when scouting against partisans disrupting the tracks in McGuba's BE mod. (That's like playing whack-a-mole!)

armored car.jpg (133.67 KiB) Viewed 3017 times

I still like the idea of putting all weaponized trains in one class for purchasing. So all trains/armored trains would start out in class #17. Then, depending on weaponry and purpose, the train would have a switch putting into the appropriate class. If the main weapons were 76mm AA guns, then give that train a class #5 switch. Or if it's main purpose was bombardment, give it a class #4 switch.

One of the more interesting units in your links was the MBV-2. That thing is just screaming for a tank (#0) switch with all those turrets. Now I haven't tested that switch but I can see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Ok, time for more testing.

[cw58]

@Guille,
Maybe all I need is the icon for the siege artillery (18). If I'm putting all trains in the rail category, the vanilla icon is good enough for that. Thank you.

[guille1434]

Hello guys:

Uzbek: Thanks for the armored railcars image and the always interesting links!

Cw58: Thanks also for your comments, about them I would add...

For the 24 cm K3, quoting wikipedia:

"The 24 cm Kanone 3 (24 cm K 3) was a German heavy siege gun used in the Second World War by the first battalion of Artillerie-Regiment 84. Four were in service when Germany invaded Poland, assigned to the first two batteries of I./AR 84.[1] In the Battle of France the battalion still only had four guns.[2] By Operation Barbarossa all three batteries were equipped with two guns apiece.[3] This situation did not change for the next two years."

So, indeed we can class is ts a siege gun, after all, although it hadn't a very large caliber, it was a long range, very heavy ordnance piece (almost 55 tons). Ok for that!

For the sake of "uniformity" I think we can classify anything of 24 cm caliber and up as "Siege Artillery" being railroad or otherwise and give them the long term suppression ability by its native unit class or by means of a switch as needed.

Completely agree with the unit classification you propose for the different type of units (as seen in your five tier unit tipification). Some comments about that:

- Transport trains: Should be included in unit class #17, all right, but must be made invisible in the purchase screen by means of the "nopurchase" trait.

- In order to further differentiate lesser caliber railguns from heavier ones I would give the smaller ones the ability of providing support fire to friendly units (to be classed in #4 class). After all, I think that smaller railguns, mounted on turnable turrets (armoured or not, and I am thinkin about the German 15 and 17 cm K(E)), have the flexibility to be able to provide support fire in the same way as land based units with equal caliber.

- Also refering to those lighter, "rotatable" railguns they were, historically, also being able to act as coast artillery pieces, so I would give them a further switch with an "anti-ship" capability: No soft and hard attack values (may be only low passive attack values for autodefense when attacked by enemy land units while in their coastal defense mode), good naval attack value and no support fire nor long term suppression ability. In fact I made icons for the 15 and 17 cm railguns in coastal defense role.
On the other hand, heavier, "no rotatable" railguns showed no use in the coast defence role, even when mounted on rail turntables, as it was historycally shown by the 28 cm K5 (E) positioned in the English Channel coast.

- Another, off topic, but related comment about this: All these different kinds of super-heavy units we are talking about, should be mounted on "heavy sea" transport units for its transport over sea hexes (of course, air transport is VERY out of the question). May be you have read the explanation of this idea in the Pak mod thread?

- By the way, I think that the 0 move rule should be applied to any artillery piece of 15 cm and up, being them siege or not. It is not realistic thet gun crews can man-handle pieces weighting 7,8 or more tons over relatively long distances (bearing in mind that on any typical PzCorps map one hex equals to a few kilometers at least). This would also prevent the retreating of the unit if supressed by enemy action, it is also not realistic that gun crews can retreat when facing overwhelming odds taking their heavy artillery pieces with them.

- Purchase screen icons: I made the railgun and siege artillery small icons. If you like, test them to see how will they look in-game. (Attached to the present posting).

- If possible, make a small test comparing long term suppression effect of siege artillery units when classed as armored train unit type compared against the same unit but classed as a strategic bomber.

- I saw in the screenshots you uploaded that you designed a "Night Fighter" unit class. Can you comment your ideas about this?

To Uzbek: The armored railcars with machine gun or light artillery armament (less than 75/76 mm caliber) should be implemented like railway mobile light tanks or recon vehicles, giving them them "reconmove" trait, perhaps.

Greetings!

PS to Cw58, after reading your last posting: If the transport train unit will be invisible in the purchase screen, and we use that class to group all armed railway-borne units, an icon for something more "armed and dangerous" should be better to describe the unit class in that screen.