The Dustbin . . .

[Nosy_Rat]

bbogensc (Carthaginians 262-236BC) v Nosy_Rat (Romans 379-424 AD)

Challenge posted, pm sent.

[ruskicanuk]

ruskicanuk defeated Antonis1984 in a very tight battle 55-37 (I believe he surrendered as we ran out of time). His Scottish chariots nearly sent the Carthaginians to the rear... Quite enjoyed that match

[stockwellpete]

Quarter-final results start here.

[bbogensc]

bbogensc (Carthage 262-236BC) defeats Nosy_Rat Romans (379-424AD) 59-28%.

[Ludendorf]

Ludendorf (Carthaginians: Hannibal in Africa 202BC) defeats MikeC_81 (Roman 197-284AD) 24-38%.

Thanks Mike for the good game.

[stockwellpete]

Two wins for Carthage over Rome in the two quarter-final results posted so far.

[hidde]

hidde (Pyrrhic) beat edb1815 (Romans) 61-32

[stockwellpete]

All three Roman armies knocked out in the quarter-finals!

[Ludendorf]

Hannibal's undead legions will be celebrating in their camp tonight as they give thanks to Baal and eat the brains of their defeated Roman counterparts.

(What? They're already dead. What do you think we are, barbarian zombies who eat people alive?)

[ruskicanuk]

ruskicanuk (Carthaginians 235-146BC) defeats IMC (Seleucids 300-206BC) 60-17

[MikeC_81]

goddamn, all Carthaginians in the Top 4

[stockwellpete]

Semi-final results start here

[stockwellpete]

I will be making the semi-final draw live on the forum at 9am (BST) tomorrow morning, June 30th.

[stockwellpete]

Quarter-final results

1. bbogensc (Carthaginians 262-236BC) beat Nosy_Rat (Romans 379-424 AD) 59-28
2. Ludendorf (Carthaginians, Hannibal in Africa 202BC) beat MikeC_81 (Romans 197-284AD) 38-24
3. hidde (Pyrrhic 280-272BC) beat edb1815 (Romans 379-424 AD) 61-32
4. ruskicanuk (Carthaginians 235-146BC) beat IMC (Seleucids 300-206BC) 60-17

[stockwellpete]

Semi-final matches start here

[bbogensc]

A couple points,

(1) First, Carthage is not a pike army. The Carthage army is flexible and was chosen by the top players for its flexibility. So, skilled players can recruit a force that will not be swept off the map based on a mismatch in unit type, and then the game will then be decided mostly by player skill.

(2) Second, several of the players that were assigned to Tier A in league mentioned their total games played in FOGII is around 50. For my part, I've played about 150 FOG II matches. So, what we see is players who've played alot tend to win in the tournaments and so forth even over the Tier A players who don't play the game very much or as much.

(3) Third, I doubt the semi finalist players here were lucky in their matches. One of my opponents registered 5 fractures of my units in 1 turn, as illustration. So, when I play now against an opponent that I suspect will be extremely "lucky" for whatever reason on his or her turns, I simply do not offer game positions where the match will be decided solely on my opponent's turn.

[Kabill]

goddamn, all Carthaginians in the Top 4

I feel a bit better about losing badly to a couple of matches against Ludendorf's Carthaginians in pre-tournament friendlies now!

I suspect, as bbogensc has suggested, flexibility is key. That's an obvious advantage for the Carthaginian player in a knock-out tournament as it means there are no inherently "bad" match-ups they can face. But, playing against Carthaginians, I also find that flexibility a problem because it's difficult to predict what the Carthaginian player will field and so difficult to know what the main threats might be that need countering. In turn, that creates an incentive to try and build an all-round army that can try and resist any possible Carthaginian lineup, but which lacks any particular strength of its own. Dunno if other people find this, but that's a key issue I've had playing against Carthaginians and why I find them very challenging to fight.

[MikeC_81]

Flexibility is definitely the defining feature of the Carthaginian lists. I am glad that I got it right with the Tier list placement when I initially ranked them in Tier A despite not having a Carthaginian army win any of the FoG2DL divisions in season 1 but I felt strongly they deserved to be there. Another big advantage is not only can they pick an army for the matchup, but they are also agile in terms of terrain generation.

The biggest issue I found both in the FoG2DL and this tournament is the need to account for the possibility of 3 elephants every time while Carthaginian players can opt for none.

In terms of player skill vs luck, all 4 finalists and most of the top 8 are known players (to me at least) and all obviously know what they are doing. It is next to impossible to luck your way this far but it is also entirely possible to get knocked out early to bad luck.

I find it strange you brought the FoG2DL divisions in to the mix? Just curious if that was the reason why withdrew from tournaments?

[bbogensc]

Yes, MikeC, and you were also correct that the late Roman lists are Tier A. The Roman +-400AD lists and also Romano-British are each comparable, probably better, than the Carthage lists in my view. Note also, the Jewish lists are extremely problematic for Carthage without much archery and I scrambled to get out of my 1st round match up. However, Carthage dominates horse based armies when played properly, and I also thought I could win easily with Carthage against any archer armies by sheer numbers.

On league, I am busy right now with work and travel, but am also very discouraged that players (especially newer players) are able to re-load turns. I don't enjoy playing the game against players who are re-loading, its just not fun, even though as klayeckes pointed out there is a certain joy in beating a player that is obviously re-loading. There was a recent posting by Skirmish Lord where he explained that the re-load warning only occurs on extreme re-loading abuse (appears to be dozens and dozens of times), and then its just a warning with no practical effect. In the first season of league I properly reported a player that appeared to be re-loading, and was wrongly told this was "impossible" and Stockwellpete attempted to award the match to my opponent simply for pointing out that he appeared to be re-loading, as Stockwellpete then wrongly claimed this was impossible. I never received any sort of apology or explanation. It was only months later that Kabill demonstrated exactly how the reloading is done, and then we were again told the issue is under control, but its obviously not. In my experience, in addition to outlandish battle results, players that are re-loading often make head on or suicidal attacks that make no sense, so its blatantly obvious the person is re-loading and knows they are going to load a sequence until they get a 2 drop fracture, for example.

So, where I was placed in B and C, with players I've never heard of, and other players I've never heard of going directly into A, I just decided that was enough where I had beaten many of the A players. I am running the campaign which is more enjoyable and in a campaign its really impractical to try to re-load turns so its just a more viable set up. I don't think the league is designed well enough to run where players are able to re-load especially in the lower divisions.

[stockwellpete]

On league, I am busy right now with work and travel, but am also very discouraged that players (especially newer players) are able to re-load turns. I don't enjoy playing the game against players who are re-loading, its just not fun, even though as klayeckes pointed out there is a certain joy in beating a player that is obviously re-loading. There was a recent posting by Skirmish Lord where he explained that the re-load warning only occurs on extreme re-loading abuse (appears to be dozens and dozens of times), and then its just a warning with no practical effect. In the first season of league I properly reported a player that appeared to be re-loading, and was wrongly told this was "impossible" and Stockwellpete attempted to award the match to my opponent simply for pointing out that he appeared to be re-loading, as Stockwellpete then wrongly claimed this was impossible. I never received any sort of apology or explanation. It was only months later that Kabill demonstrated exactly how the reloading is done, and then we were again told the issue is under control, but its obviously not. In my experience, in addition to outlandish battle results, players that are re-loading often make head on or suicidal attacks that make no sense, so its blatantly obvious the person is re-loading and knows they are going to load a sequence until they get a 2 drop fracture, for example.

And you will not be getting an apology either. I immediately referred your concerns to Richard, the game designer, as I have no technical expertise in this area. He then replied to you in detail, so to say you had no explanation then, or subsequently, is just not true. I also spent a lot of time liaising between Richard and the other player concerned, who strenuously denied your accusations of cheating, it must be said. You had only been in the tournament a week or so before you made these allegations. Once Richard had clarified the situation, I referred the match to the other two adjudicators and we unanimously awarded the match to your opponent. However, your opponent graciously waived the award and played the game to a successful (for him) finish. I do not actually believe there is much cheating going on in the FOG2DL, if any at all. Most players enter for enjoyment after all and they enjoy a fair contest, which is what they get 99% of the time.

So, where I was placed in B and C, with players I've never heard of, and other players I've never heard of going directly into A, I just decided that was enough where I had beaten many of the A players. I am running the campaign which is more enjoyable and in a campaign its really impractical to try to re-load turns so its just a more viable set up. I don't think the league is designed well enough to run where players are able to re-load especially in the lower divisions.

You started off in Season 1 in Division E as a reserve and you finished second. So it was entirely reasonable of me to put you in Divisions B and C in Season 2 taking into account some other results of yours that I had seen. The player who finished above you in Division E in Season 1 was not put in Division A either this season, even though I am sure that he would do quite well there. There was only one player put directly into an A Division this season (he was given a B Division as well) and he has achieved a good set of results so far, which shows that I was not too far off with my assessment of his abilities.

Also, I am puzzled why you think it is impractical to "re-load" turns in a campaign when you seem to think the practice is widespread in the FOG2DL. And I have no idea why you think players in the lower divisions are more likely to be cheating than the top players.

It sounds to me like you have done as much as you possibly can to disrupt the FOG2DL this time, by entering all 5 sections and then withdrawing a couple of days after the start, even though you had started playing some matches. It is not up to me alone to decide who plays in the FOG2DL in future, as there are two other adjudicators whose views are also taken into account. But you have definitely lost my vote as far as the FOG2DL is concerned.