Pike & Shot Caracole II

[TheGrayMouser]

but to be able to defend you need some defense. on a flat terrain forget it.

uhh, RBS is currently defending the crap out me on a pretty flat map....

Also, the game give options for a dedicated attack defend battle versus the open ended "meeting engagements" Not sure how that would be easily incorporated into a tournement format in an easy/fair way though...

[rbodleyscott]

but to be able to defend you need some defense. on a flat terrain forget it.

uhh, RBS is currently defending the crap out me on a pretty flat map....

I was going to say, who needs terrain to defend in the era of pike and shot? I can't think of any other period when infantry was better able to defend itself on open ground.

One side wants to be able to choose close terrain to defend. The other side wants open terrain for his cavalry. Obviously both sides can't have exactly what they want. So what they get is a compromise that sometimes favours one or the other more.

But in truth, it is up to the general to use the available terrain to his advantage or minimise his disadvantage, and historical generals (mad or otherwise) certainly couldn't always choose the nature of the ground on which they fought. And when they could it was more likely to be the "challengee" (defender) rather than the "challenger" (invader) that got to choose.

Also, with wider maps (which will be default after the next update), the "battlefield" isn't the whole map, it is the part of the map on which the clash of arms actually takes place after the initial manoeuvres. This gives plenty of scope for each side to take advantage of the prevailing terrain in a way that best suits the capabilities of their army.

Having said that, the next update will allow the general terrain type of the territory to be set, producing different maps in Agricultural, Hilly, Wooded, and Mountainous regions.

[krieg63]

I was going to say, who needs terrain to defend in the era of pike and shot? I can't think of any other period when infantry was better able to defend itself on open ground.

Catholic infantry versus French Infantry....
Nothing could stop the french furry unless terrain.
with only 3 shots the french could never be desorganised.

[TheGrayMouser]

Pod 3 Result

TGM (Royalist Edgehill) won vs Ulysisgrunt (parliament) 25-50

Tough battle terrain for the round heads. the royalist musketeers poured mucho firepower into the parliament pike&shot in the center from the cover of hedges/woods, while on the open flanks, the Cavaliers contained the carbineer cavalry quite handily, (except for the Lobster squadron!)

Good game man!

[cavehobbit]

Pod 2 result:

Cavehobbit (Royalist 1643-44) 0% won vs Deadtorius (Parliament+Scots 1644-46) 45%
The King showed he will keep both crown and head. The Parliamentarians and Scots split their force, one staying in the open and the other to make a flanking move, partially through a forest. The Royalists saw the opportunity to attack the Parliamentarians in the open with most of the Royalists units, while keeping some units to protect their flank. The battle ended just as the Parliamentarian flanking force was about to break the Royalists flank defenders.
Thanks for a good game!

[Vadim84]

Two results here :


Two turkish victories ! First Rumguff's Ottoman beated my catholics, and then I, as Turkish, could overcome egos' catholic.

Very interesting to see that the "worst" army of Caracole I is suddenly turning into a very valuable one ! New settings help, turkish have a lots of cheap cav and now it is def. more easy to encircle ur opponent (happened twice, turkish cav outnumber one of the catholic's wing, then destroy it, and then you get the rest of the german's army).

[cavehobbit]

Pod 2 result:

Cavehobbit (German Protestant 1639-1648) 0% won vs Moncholee (German Catholic 1639-1648) 47%
The Catholics attacked with cavalry on their flanks while their infantry move casually forward in the middle. The Protestants split their force in two and attacked the Catholics flanks. The Catholics fell back and the protestants moved more units to its left flank and continued the attack. Some Catholic infantry came to support their cavalry, but was driven away.
Thanks for a good game!

Moncholee, I've sent you a PM with armies for our next battle.

[Hrothgar]

At last!

Hrothgar [Sweden] wins [56%] vs Deadtorius [German Catholics, 60%]

I've been doing very poorly in this tourney. I think I'm not good at picking even match ups, nor at choosing the best side of the two offered to me. But this time the Swedes eked out a close victory. Urra!

[deadtorius]

Rumguff (Catholic) 24% victorious over deadtorius Transylvanians (44%)
An excellent game in which the Transylvanians managed to swing around the Catholic left and into their rear where they suddenly found they could not do anything against the tercios and heavy cavalry that had waited there. On the other flank the Trnasylvanians thought they were off to a good start but the Catholics moved up cavalry with tercio support that provided good shooting results and the Transylvanians began a common result of losing badly in almost every melee. My infantry finally got into shooting range but the cavalry melee was such a mess that almost no shooting could take place and with my cavalry routing away my infantry became victim to enemy horse in the open. A good game and well played by rumguff, congratulations.

[moncholee]

My Italian Wars French were victorius against Hrothgar Spanish. I managed to press on the Spanish left flank and attack there with superior numbers before the rest of his army could enter the fight. Thank you for an intresting game.

On the other hand, as it has already been posted, I was utterly destroyed by cavehobbit. I realised it was going to be hard right after I saw both armies deployment, but it was worse than I could imagine! I didn´t have a chance and just disrupted two or three of his units Superbly played by him.

[Aryaman]

Aryaman (Spanish 1503-1533) won 42% vs 61% Rumguff (French 1526-1549)
The colunellas did a gret job.

[ulysisgrunt]

Spanish Imperials (Dortmund; 3% loss) crushing my Danes (43% loss). I have never seen an entire center break and run away in a cascade of running little feet!
Many thanks for the game...
Danny Weitz
Ulysisgrunt

[Dortmund]

Thank you, Danny! You had bad luck in the contagious loss of morale. Maybe you should have weakened more my tercios before the close combat, altough some of them were yet disrupted or very weakened.

[Dortmund]

It seems that the second battle between me and Shawkhan is going to be a draw. It has been a very very close game. We both have 40% or so. The tournament rules say that:

7. Winning:
a. Players will receive one point for each game won and zero points for each game lost. Note that no games can result in a draw.
b. Phase I results will be used for Phase II pod assignment. Phase II results will be used for final scoring.

What should we do, Flatsix? Play another battle or the side with less % of retreated units at the end of the battle wins?

[rbodleyscott]

It seems that the second battle between me and Shawkhan is going to be a draw. It has been a very very close game. We both have 40% or so. The tournament rules say that:

7. Winning:
a. Players will receive one point for each game won and zero points for each game lost. Note that no games can result in a draw.
b. Phase I results will be used for Phase II pod assignment. Phase II results will be used for final scoring.

What should we do, Flatsix? Play another battle or the side with less % of retreated units at the end of the battle wins?

The program will decide the winner on that basis if the time limit is reached.

[flatsix518]

That happened to me in a game with Guillaume. The one with the higher % of casualties is the loser.

Sorry -- I'm still wrapped up with things at home.

Come Tuesday I'll catch up everything.

John

[Dortmund]

2 more results in Pod 3:

Dortmund (Catholic League 1619-1632) 48% won vs Shawkhan2 (German protestant 1618-1631) 49%

The battle finally ended at the nightfall with a victory on my side... only with a 1% of difference! This has been the more balanced battle that I've played. The game started with the catholic cavalry chasing the protestant cavalry in one side of the battlefield. Our infantry waited a while while the cavalry clashed. The catholics won the overall cavalry battle, but two powerful protestant kurassier units managed to win his duels and started to go to my infantry back.

The protestant tercios advanced and began to win the shooting contest, disrupting my tercios, and the hand to hand combat started... a combat where I losed more units and the battle results balanced. Only the two catholic veteran tercios resisted and managed to win his clashes.

Thanks to Shawkhan2 for this wonderful and exciting battle.


And Dortmund (Spanish-Imperial 1534-1542) 5% won vs Ulysisgrunt (French 1526-1549) 45%

The french army had a lot of keils and gendarmes but almost no skirmishing units. Only a unit of light cavalry (light lancers). The spanish-imperial arkebussiers, hussars, jinetes and cannons had no rival in weakening the keils and gendarmes as they advanced. Thanks to Danny and apologise me, but it was a unbalanced army.

[krieg63]

but to be able to defend you need some defense. on a flat terrain forget it.

uhh, RBS is currently defending the crap out me on a pretty flat map....

Also, the game give options for a dedicated attack defend battle versus the open ended "meeting engagements" Not sure how that would be easily incorporated into a tournement format in an easy/fair way though...

sorry but those attack defend battles have absolutly no interest...

[krieg63]

Having said that, the next update will allow the general terrain type of the territory to be set, producing different maps in Agricultural, Hilly, Wooded, and Mountainous regions.

great!!!!

[ulysisgrunt]

Reply for Dortmund-
You are quite right; it was a good learning experience.
Danny