Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

[bebro]

Thanks for the feedback.

Re your suggestion:

Personally I'd be ok with Eng/Bautruppe repairing foxholes, "normal" (=wood) bunkers. I'd be more reluctant for the concrete bunkers as I think the more complex bunkers were difficult to build, so (probably) not so easy to repair.

I could imagine it as "slow repair" (1pt/turn), thouhg the question is will it be useful then. OTOH one concern could be abuse/exploit when it becomes too easy (being able to quick-repair fortifications all the time could be OP).

I can bring it up within the team tho

[Andy2012]

'Vell, Hans, ze Americans certainly dont havv much of a bulge, do zey?' 'No, zilly decadent vools. Get ze Panzerfaust, Franz.'

I finished Battle of the Bulge / Ardennenoffensive pushing for Liege, Luxembourg and Bastogne. I am quite curious if anybody hasnt gone for Liege and pushed beyond Bastogne to Dinant (?). Please tell.

Anyways, I stick with my usual approach and form several Kampfgruppen of 1 heavy AT Jagdtiger (kicks ass, but expensive), 2-3 inf and a Nebelwerfer. Also, add my 2 K17 long range arty, 2 eng for mine clearing and my heavy Kingtiger tanks for extra oomph. Yeah. I chose to get the extra aux units instead of any weird behind the lines stuff. Skorzeny was useless then and is useless now IMO. The aux units (inf and Sherman) can hold down flanks or cover recovering units behind the front. Because this is one big battle around Liege. Have one medium Kampfgruppe push for Luxembourg, then for Bastogne northwest, one small one push through the Forest toward Bastogne and your biggest with all the heavy tanks towards Liege, seizing the fuel dump on the way. As usual, advance carefully to avoid ambushes and have your inf hug your heavy AT all the way. Tanks will work hard around Liege - where you will face the hardest and stiffest opposition ever in this DLC. The US will pull out all the stops to crush you and will literally throw the bathtub at the Wehrmacht and then some. Rotate your units, have your Jagdtigers cover all units all the time and you can grind them down eventually. And once again, dont bother with bombers, go all fighters.

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[Mojko]

Thanks for the feedback.

Re your suggestion:

Personally I'd be ok with Eng/Bautruppe repairing foxholes, "normal" (=wood) bunkers. I'd be more reluctant for the concrete bunkers as I think the more complex bunkers were difficult to build, so (probably) not so easy to repair.

I could imagine it as "slow repair" (1pt/turn), thouhg the question is will it be useful then. OTOH one concern could be abuse/exploit when it becomes too easy (being able to quick-repair fortifications all the time could be OP).

I can bring it up within the team tho

That's a good point. I suggest applying a similar restriction as is used in minelaying - the fortification can't be repaired if an enemy unit is right next to it or an enemy unit is next to the engineer. Something similar to support ship repair action.

[terminator]

Thanks for the feedback.

Re your suggestion:

Personally I'd be ok with Eng/Bautruppe repairing foxholes, "normal" (=wood) bunkers. I'd be more reluctant for the concrete bunkers as I think the more complex bunkers were difficult to build, so (probably) not so easy to repair.

I could imagine it as "slow repair" (1pt/turn), thouhg the question is will it be useful then. OTOH one concern could be abuse/exploit when it becomes too easy (being able to quick-repair fortifications all the time could be OP).

I can bring it up within the team tho

That's a good point. I suggest applying a similar restriction as is used in minelaying - the fortification can't be repaired if an enemy unit is right next to it or an enemy unit is next to the engineer. Something similar to support ship repair action.

Or simply the possibility to construct mg nest as for the Japanese Infantry (Defensive doctrine) ?

[Andy2012]

Okay, Antwerp is mine and I have now reached the goals of the original Battle of the Bulge plan (I think it was Operation Wacht am Rhein in German...).

This is a fairly large mission with a broad front and your primaries and secondaries considerably apart. However, I think that none of this is not straightforward or difficult to strategize. I (once again) form three Kampfgruppen around my heavy AT Jagdtigers with 2-3 inf, 1 eng, 1-2 Nebelwerfers and let my long-range arty in the back covering them all. One group pushes east, then north, one west, then northwest and the middle one towards Brussels, then Antwerp. I supplement this one with my Kingtiger tanks. If possible, all should converge on Antwerp. Also, I keep some air cp undeployed so I can add some antiship Stukas later. For now, I deploy all my fighters to slowly gain air superiority. Be careful in the east since the US will counterattack over the river and try to cut you off when you turn northeast. Best leave one inf and one AT behind.
To Calais, then.

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[GabeKnight]

For me the southern attack by the Americans and Free French didn't happen, because they were... well, dead. A pre-emptive attack led by 3 x Gebirgsjäger saw all the enemies melt away. Those guys have a great movement not only in winter but also in these forested areas. You can easily keep Domfront throughout the scenario. The enemies just can't dislodge the aux heavy infantry and it is a useful roadblock. Btw., I think Gabe will probably clean the map in this one.

Thanks for your vote of confidence....I've tried and.... failed.... everything takes just longer with level5 difficulty. Every time you see a fully entrenched, dug-in, 13HP infantry unit onto some high cover hex, you'll think twice about attacking it, if you can avoid it...

The Falais scen was quite the fun, enemies from all sides closing in. Nice scen. Starting with this mission in Endsieg, I chose to abandon my no-AA policy and got me two Wirbelwinds. Basically the usual defending stuff going on with shifting frontlines and much mobility. You can see the situation with my deployed forces near the end in the screenshots:

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[GabeKnight]

So far, the Endsieg DLC is like the "Winter War", but for the Germans. With Blitz- and Panzerkrieg I was on the offensive, rampaging, capturing and plundering my way through history. Now it's different; feeling quite the pressure from the enemy advances and increase in enemy ressources and reinforcements. It took me some time to adapt my tactics, to be honest. It's not my style to sit on my ass and not initiate attacks. It's hard... it's really hard to give up the dream of conquering the world...

Paris was super fun. Reading the other AARs, I've tried to utilize my engineers more and went all out in this mission. Blew up half the bridges and mined the hell out of the rest. Very effective to steer the enemy where you want them.

I've got myself two brand new, state-of-the-art Sturmtigers. The Wehrmacht couldn't afford them, thus they went to the Waffen-SS. Why do these guys always get the best equipment, I wonder?

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[CoolDTA]

Thanks for your vote of confidence....I've tried and.... failed.... everything takes just longer with level5 difficulty. Every time you see a fully entrenched, dug-in, 13HP infantry unit onto some high cover hex, you'll think twice about attacking it, if you can avoid it...

Well, I don't consider that a failure because I naturally meant under the same conditions i.e. at lvl 3 difficulty.

I've got myself two brand new, state-of-the-art Sturmtigers.

Yeah, those... As you know, it is built on the Tiger chassis, has the same engine but weighs more. Yet mysteriously it has 8 MP while the Tiger has 6 MP. You're playing v715b2 version - maybe this is fixed? Sturmtiger also only carried 14 rounds which should be taken into consideration but I guess it is not possible in OoB. And since only 18 were made it shouldn't even been there to be bulk bought at will. The 5 CP cost is at least fixed, yes?

Those commander images are quite small - 4k res?

[GabeKnight]

Well, I don't consider that a failure because I naturally meant under the same conditions i.e. at lvl 3 difficulty.

It's an explanation, but no excuse

Yeah, those... As you know, it is built on the Tiger chassis, has the same engine but weighs more. Yet mysteriously it has 8 MP while the Tiger has 6 MP. You're playing v715b2 version - maybe this is fixed? [...] The 5 CP cost is at least fixed, yes?

Those commander images are quite small - 4k res?

Nah to both questions. At full 3840x2160 the UI is tiny and unreadable. It's something in between, 1440p I think.

And regarding the Sturmtiger stats, they're still a mess. Same as with the Wirbel-/Ostwind switch modes. They're included inside the BugDB already, but although the next beta build is sheduled to arrive soon, I don't expect those changes to be implemented, yet. To be fair, it was holiday season, so probably not much work has been done the last weeks.
But I hope all stat fixes will be dealt with until the release of an official, public patch.

(Don't ask me about the timetable for a "public" build, though. I have no idea, and I'll leave it to Adam to make formal announcements/statements about releases.)

Market Garden

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[CoolDTA]

And regarding the Sturmtiger stats, they're still a mess. Same as with the Wirbel-/Ostwind switch modes. They're included inside the BugDB already, but although the next beta build is sheduled to arrive soon, I don't expect those changes to be implemented, yet. To be fair, it was holiday season, so probably not much work has been done the last weeks.

Okay, thanks for the info. Imo the holiday season is not a good excuse - these kinds of mistakes should not have been there in the first place and give a very amateurish impression of the equipment file of OoB. I know ppl who'd have a field day shredding apart all the blunders. For me it is really not a big deal and I'd gladly buy the rubber duck unit if it were purchasable and had good enough stats.

[GabeKnight]

[...] these kinds of mistakes should not have been there in the first place and give a very amateurish impression of the equipment file of OoB.

Agree. And it affects the newly added units which are guaranteed to be bought and tried out by all players IMO. The only "passable" AA unit for me (with a switch mode), Wirbelwind, has different chassis for either of the switch modes resulting in different movement ranges/speeds...

And with the current stats, I woudn't dare to switch the Sturmtiger to the arty setting, either.

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Some screenshots during "Huertgenwald":

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[CoolDTA]

The only "passable" AA unit for me (with a switch mode), Wirbelwind, has different chassis for either of the switch modes resulting in different movement ranges/speeds...

That is... just sad. To boot the attack values are way off, too. Flakvierling is of little use against armour, but I sure wouldn't want to be at the receiving end as a common grunt. I think you already know in which game the values are more like they should be (against soft targets the value is three times of that against hard targets).

Nice amount of powerful hardware you have around Eschweiler. Looking at your reports and Night Phoenix's lvl 5 LPs (yay, he's back) and my own playing at lvl 3 thus far, it seems the biggest difference between lvl 5 and lvl 3 is that in the former you are continuously struggling with RPs. Would you agree?

[GabeKnight]

Flakvierling is of little use against armour, but I sure wouldn't want to be at the receiving end as a common grunt. I think you already know in which game the values are more like they should be (against soft targets the value is three times of that against hard targets).

Yeah, terminator said about the same thing.
You know, I won't argue stat balance here, that lies in the eye of the beholder (or game designer), but pure stat inconsistencies are a whole different matter.

it seems the biggest difference between lvl 5 and lvl 3 is that in the former you are continuously struggling with RPs. Would you agree?

I wouldn't say "struggle" at all. Granted, you're not allowed to make many mistakes playing at lvl5 if you want "elite repair" often, but I've got like 800-1000RP each time at scenario start with usually only minor repairs to be done to my units. Like I said earlier, I don't like "hoarding" money and rather experiment around with new units or expensive upgrades. Sure, it's not a bad idea to have around 200RP left before the start of the mission, but it's well manageable with the RP/turn allowance only, too.

But yeah, generally I'd say that the biggest differences between lvl 5 and lvl 3 difficulties are the costlier repairs due to the first contact with the overstrength enemy units.

Ardennenoffensive

[...] Tanks will work hard around Liege - where you will face the hardest and stiffest opposition ever in this DLC. The US will pull out all the stops to crush you and will literally throw the bathtub at the Wehrmacht and then some. Rotate your units, have your Jagdtigers cover all units all the time and you can grind them down eventually. And once again, dont bother with bombers, go all fighters.

Well, I'm keeping my "Greif" no matter what, but otherwise very true words...

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[kondi754]

@Gabe, I'm looking at your screenshots from the game and I'm more and more eager to change the monitor in my PC

[GabeKnight]

@Gabe, I'm looking at your screenshots from the game and I'm more and more eager to change the monitor in my PC

I can recommend it! Although I have no clue what it is that you can see in the screenshots that can give you an impression of how fabulous it really looks like in BIG...

Phew, the Ardennenoffensive is over. What a battle! The enemy's aggression was incredible, a very nice counter-attack at Liege. I've lost three core units there. All of them were kind of meant to be enemy-attack-magnets - some cheap infantry, but their destruction was unexpected nonetheless, even more the arty hit that killed my NebelWerfer. Doesn't happen every day...

Nice scen, I quite liked it!

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[kondi754]

I can recommend it! Although I have no clue what it is that you can see in the screenshots that can give you an impression of how fabulous it really looks like in BIG...

Because I have big monitor too, but not 4K...
I can see how many details are in vehicles' models.
I create skins, so I make a lot of printscreens but my screenshots don't look like yours at all

[GabeKnight]

@Kondi Didn't notice. Actually I thought that the screenshots of others always looked nicer than mine...

Antwerp taken. Finally a "true" Tabula Rasa again.
Although I was supposed to be on the offensive, the Allied forces were the ones constantly assaulting and attacking my positions. Strange, but welcome. It's easier that way than assaulting dug-in enemy positions. No real surprises here, advance carefully and all's good. Good balance IMO.
My core (Wehr.&WSS) was something like 2x Königstiger, 3x Jagdtiger, Jagdpanther, 3x Sturmtiger, 2x Nebelwerfer, 4x 17cm, 2x AA (Ost/Wirbelwind), 2x eng, 2x heavy inf, the rest Volkssturm or Gebirgsjäger. 4x Me262 (much needed, the Allied air's really strong), Greif and deployed one StuKa during the final 10 turns or so for the sec. obj., but wasn't really needed.

Now, let's crush the Allies for good at Calais..

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[CoolDTA]

Antwerp taken. Finally a "true" Tabula Rasa again.

Seems it does take a while to get the old engine running effectively. Good going!

[Andy2012]

Okay, Calais and the rest of northern France is back in Wehrmacht hands again. Unrealistic as it was back then, this was a fun end to a good DLC.
I think what Mojko already wrote about taking the Kriegsmarine secondaries ASAP is true. Dont delay getting the extra firepower from the sea.
Also, dont overextend your core and advance carefully after seizing the ports and lifting the siege on your aux units. The allies will throw massive forces at you - however, I feel like this time, they are less concentrated than in Liege.
I formed three Kampfgruppen (I think you may have read this several times now) and let them advance on a broad front. Bring a few engineers, there will be mines. The major thrust should be down the middle of the map, where Kingtiger tanks supplement my units. Supplement means they are not the backbone of my core, AT and regular inf is. Also, since you are attacking here and not defending, put your Nebelwerfers in the front line during deployment.
Anyways, I had a lot of fun and mostly avoided (through sheer luck) the unit bugs some people encountered. The only thing that worries me a bit was that my standard approach (mixed Kampfgruppen, hug your AT at all times, broad front, no elite reinforcements, all fighters) worked so well across almost all missions. Maybe somebody can comment or discuss it - is OoB becoming too predictable? I think it is definitely worth a discussion here. I think any fictional 'Wehrmacht 1946 onward' DLC should have greater variety in mission styles - and it can since it is not bound by historic battles and purely fictional!

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[GabeKnight]

Seems it does take a while to get the old engine running effectively. Good going!

Well, it's easier on maps that are supposed to be conquered to those that are supposed to be defensive.
But I've always loved to wipe out the Soviets in the defensive missions of the WinterWar DLC, too.

Due to my overconfidence and the initial assumption, that the Allies would remain rather static than go on an all-out offensive in this scen, I've almost got overrun during the first turns. The early Allied offensive on Liege (again! Of course... ) caught me - more or less - by surprise, resulting in the loss of two airports and a huge supply hub, placing my land and air units into under-supply. Completely in compliance with the thread title: "Mistakes were made, mein Führer..."

Luckily, the real consequences of this raid were quite negligible; but my air units having low efficiency.... ...doesn't happen very often either anymore

And I've still got to find out how to use the "Uhu" unit properly...

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I've noticed a rather strange behaviour of the AI many times, also apparent in the screenshot: moving its units into the FOW and not attacking an easy -high value- target. It's...as if the AI couldn't attack my units that it encounters in the FOW and that it didn't see before it moved.
This behaviour is especially exploitable with AI arty. I think some AI unit types should not move or be taken out of the computational cycle until the very last moment of AI calculations for the turn. So many vasted opportunities with idle AI arty positions when a valid target is seen only by some unit during the last cycle of a different AI team.

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