ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

[Kelen2]

Could always argue that until the new model army came along the bulk of the armies were predominately locally raised forces, so counting your counties at the end of your go reflects a commander collecting local militias as they move through a liberated/conquered county, or militia forces deserting the army to return home to defend their county upon hearing of invading forces.

I think you could argue it either way, but It does depend on the timescale for each move. If we are talking 1move = 1month then I would probably agree with Warlord. If 1move = 3 months though I would say it could be either.

Regarding acquiring recruits and supplies, it depends on how complex we want to make it. I like the idea in principle but surely you could only do this in counties you actually own, or at least the amount you gain in simply ‘friendly counties’ should be far less than that you would gain in your own counties. Likewise, the time of year should affect this as well.

As I said, how complex do we want to make this ‘game’. Do we start taking attrition into account depending on whether it is a single move or flying column, the time of year, terrain and our losses in the previous turn(s).

Where do we stop?

[awesum4]

I think we have to play this campaign out with the rules as they stand now. We all know them now.
But there are some changes that I would like to see implemented for the next campaign (presuming Gavin is willing to run it again).
1/ Control of a county changes at the end of the turn. So the army size in a battle is how big it was at the beginning of the turn.
2/ Armies can move 2 counties in a turn provided the first is through a friendly owned county. I.e you can move through (a) two friendly counties, or (b)one friendly then an enemy or neutral which is captured at the end of a turn if captured, or (c) one enemy or neutral county which becomes captured at the end of the turn. An army moving through enemy counties is slower than an army chasing it.
3/ Only Royalists can use a flying column which uses the Royalist Raiders army list, moves 5 counties but does not gain control of any of them. Stops when it either meets an enemy force or is able to reinforce a battle. At the end of the turn remains returns to its starting position. Must remain stationary for the next turn to regroup, if attacked is still a Royalist Raiders army. Based on Prince Rupert's relief of York.
4/ A losing army retreats to the county it came from, or to a friendly county next to the county the battle was fought in. Must remain stationary for the next turn, if attacked will fight at full strength. If there is no county to retreat to it is disbanded.
5/ Disbanded armies are rebuilt at the start of the second turn after being disbanded in their sides capital. a side can only rebuild one army each turn.
6/ Parliaments capital is London, Royalists is Oxford. Both are defended by a 1,000point garrison plus any army present in that county. Lose your capital and you cannot rebuild disbanded armies until you recapture it.

At the moment armies fluctuate in size dramatically and if you lose battles you lose some territory but you still have an army which can popup almost anywhere needed.
These changes would reduce fluctuation of army size and also make winning battles more important and losing them have serious consequences

[ulysisgrunt]

I think Warlord's points are well taken.
I particularly like the idea of husbanding resources.

[GDod]

Proposed changes next turn (I've taken the simplified route Awesum.)

1 = a force has to hold the county for a turn before claiming it.
2 = armies can move 2 counties in a turn provided the first is through a friendly owned county. A flying column can move three but may only claim the last county. (5 is just too many)
3 = only Royalists can use a flying column which uses the Royalist Raiders army list.
4 = a losing army retreats to the county it came from, or to a friendly county next to the county the battle was fought. Allother situations the retreating army is disbanded.
5 = Parliament's capital is London, Royalists is now Oxford. Both are defended by a 1,000 point garrison. Lose your capital and you cannot rebuild disbanded armies until you recapture it.
6= a loss of more than 25% or conceding a battle means the losing army must remain stationary next turn to recover strength.
7= if any commander gains "reputation" any opponent must include maximum possible raw units (to stimulate knocky knees!)
8= Reputation = Winning 3 or more battles in a row until a subsequent battle is lost

As to husbanding resources, this becomes problematic for recording and maintaining, the 50pt addition and district bonus;s represents this collection of militia. Losing a battle usually means losing 50pts for the county or 100 in the case of a district.A disbanded army does not necessarily just 'pop up', first it must have a friendly prepared to give up a county and it remains a 1000pt army (usually they will now be facing considerably more armies of higher values.
Indeed, it is a balancing act of simplicity to run and detail. As it is the workload is considerable and I rely on the likes of you awesum and warlord to inform and aid your factions in determining points for battles, rule clarification and testing, and movement. This campaign is far from over and it's a living entity continually being refine. As I add to the rule book (as it were) I'm conscious of the balance between historical accuracy, complication, and fairness. Sometimes, a situation is revealed that produces an unfair advantage as in the north this turn....but we learn and adapt the rules to ensure this isn't repeated next turn.

I have not issue with changing the rules as we go, in fact, it's essential but changes must be transparent, add to historical flavour, fairness, or simplification, and must be easily understood by everyone. You have raised valid observations but now we must simplify them into practical amendments.

At the moment my main concern is access to the secure threads for the Parliamentarians who are having difficulty communicating, requiring a transposition of discussions to the facebook page, and open thread! This has to be resolved with one option that can be accessed by all the faction

Any objections or suggestions to these amendments should to be lodged by the 4th July

[TheGrayMouser]

I agree these changes, except for the "rep" thing, as the parliamentarian armies have more raw troops and suffer worse. Doesn't seem quite fair.
example 43-44 royalist have 2 raw troops max, 43-45 parliament has 4 max.... I suspect the Scottish armies will be much worse!

One thing Id like to say is , can we get rid of the 50 point increments for army size, it confuses the hell out of me especially when it appears sometimes you get rounded up and sometimes down.... Perhaps keep it simple 100 for every TWO counties you posses? I dunno...

[awesum4]

I am in accord with TGM, "rep" is an extra complication. someone who has won 3 battles in a row probably has a sizable army, and his opponent knows his reputation already.
I also think the whole system of deciding what sort of battle will take place is unnecessarily complicated. Make all battles open battles with the number of points you have in each army, add 200 points for each reinforcement, multiples of 100 points spare 50 points are always rounded down. Terrain as you have already published. Keep it simple I say.

[GDod]

The Naki Bardman.jpg (3.38 KiB) Viewed 4218 times

I agree these changes, except for the "rep" thing, as the parliamentarian armies have more raw troops and suffer worse. Doesn't seem quite fair.
example 43-44 royalist have 2 raw troops max, 43-45 parliament has 4 max.... I suspect the Scottish armies will be much worse!

One thing Id like to say is , can we get rid of the 50 point increments for army size, it confuses the hell out of me especially when it appears sometimes you get rounded up and sometimes down.... Perhaps keep it simple 100 for every TWO counties you posses? I dunno...

Point taken... as for 50pts... point taken but can't see an easy solution to this one

[GDod]

The Naki Bardman.jpg (3.38 KiB) Viewed 4218 times

I am in accord with TGM, "rep" is an extra complication. someone who has won 3 battles in a row probably has a sizable army, and his opponent knows his reputation already.
I also think the whole system of deciding what sort of battle will take place is unnecessarily complicated. Make all battles open battles with the number of points you have in each army, add 200 points for each reinforcement, multiples of 100 points spare 50 points are always rounded down. Terrain as you have already published. Keep it simple I say.

Agreed... rep is off the menu

but I don't think the battle decison calculation is overly complicated awsum. I think it is important as it adds to the flavour and gives a defender of a county with adequate support to opt for any type of battle and with more support from neighbouring counties a good advantage for sending a flanking force... the rules reflect a clear line of decision making... but, what I could do is post a decision flow chart to make the process clearer. Yet I'll look at it again and see if it can be further simplified

PS FOG2 looks great!

[KiwiWarlord]

Player's Home County
Does a Player's Home County have any special attributes or value ?

According to the Rules only Counties gained by winning a battle or moving into them give the Player 50 points.

Each occupied county is worth 50 additional points. A player cannot cede a county to another either by negotiation or passing through.
Players occupy a county by moving into it or claim it by winning a battle.

[GDod]

The Naki Bardman.jpg (3.38 KiB) Viewed 4197 times

Player's Home County
Does a Player's Home County have any special attributes or value ?

According to the Rules only Counties gained by winning a battle or moving into them give the Player 50 points.

Each occupied county is worth 50 additional points. A player cannot cede a county to another either by negotiation or passing through.
Players occupy a county by moving into it or claim it by winning a battle.

The home county is merely that.. a county worth 0pts. May be it should be worth more? I could indicate on the map the designated home county? Too true... Warlord hence flying columns cannot gain the first province only the last one they occupy, sorry Tairius you should have another 50pts! Clearly, didn't read my own rule carefully enough

[awesum4]

I thought, and I'm sure we've all been playing it, that your first (home) county gave you the 1,000point army, and that each additional county gave you 50 more. You need two additional counties to get 1100 as the game doesn't allow 50 point increments. If Triarius gets an additional 50 so does Doyley, so it makes no real difference.

[awesum4]

The wording is each occupied county is worth an additional 50 points. Your original county cannot be occupied by you until it has been captured by the enemy, it is yours by right.
The interesting thing is that a number of players have lost their original (home) county. Does this mean they get 1,050 points for their first remaining county? I suggest not, and that the word "home" be removed from the rules. Instead they should state "the first county owned by a player gives him a 1,000 point army, any additional counties he owns give a bonus 50 points, due to game conditions an additional 100 points is added for each 2 additional counties owned.

[KiwiWarlord]

I thought, and I'm sure we've all been playing it, that your first (home) county gave you the 1,000point army, and that each additional county gave you 50 more

.

Yes A4 that is what I was working up to, the Players who have lost there Home Counties should not have the Base 1000 point Army

[GDod]

The Naki Bardman.jpg (3.38 KiB) Viewed 4162 times

I thought, and I'm sure we've all been playing it, that your first (home) county gave you the 1,000point army, and that each additional county gave you 50 more

.

Yes A4 that is what I was working up to, the Players who have lost there Home Counties should not have the Base 1000 point Army

I've got a feeling you're overthinking this. The intention of the"Home County" is the first county counted... and every other additonal one is 50pts.
If you orginal "Home county" has been taken, one of the remaining counties becomes your "Home county".
If you've lose all you counties then the 1000 pt army disbands as you have lost your only county left (which by definition was your last remaining "Home County")

This was the intention. Otherwise, if everyone had to guard the Home county they started the game with they would be running around with a 100pt (if two counties, possibly 200 pt army if they were lucky and still owned four!)

[GDod]

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Danny I think that you have to inflict more damage than you receive to hold the field at nightfall.
Would that be correct GD ?

The intention was the victory conditions applying to the tactical battle conditions apply, attacker only wins if inflicting 60/(40 + 25% more)

However the situation arises where both are mutually attacking. The game mechanism does not allow for this. So, this is my ruling... if their is no clear win (see above) then anything else is a draw.

[Kelen2]

The Naki Bardman.jpg

Player's Home County
Does a Player's Home County have any special attributes or value ?

According to the Rules only Counties gained by winning a battle or moving into them give the Player 50 points.

Each occupied county is worth 50 additional points. A player cannot cede a county to another either by negotiation or passing through.
Players occupy a county by moving into it or claim it by winning a battle.

The home county is merely that.. a county worth 50pts. May be it should be worth more? I could indicate on the map the designated home county? Too true... Warlord hence flying columns cannot gain the first province only the last one they occupy, sorry Tairius you should have another 50pts! Clearly, didn't read my own rule carefully enough

Just to confirm, the changes to flying columns and capturing counties happens from 'next' turn, i.e. the one we haven't yet submitted our moves for. And as such I will be capturing both 38 and 40 as per the rule, "Movement You claim a county if you pass through it (You do not have to remain in it for one turn)" and as we have played up to now. That will leave Triarius with only 2 counties and 1050pts for the battle, right?

The rule above was (as per my understanding) saying that a county didn't change hands just because another payer of your on team moved through it.

Apologies if I'm just stating the obvious, but just curious where Triarius was getting his extra 50pts from.

[awesum4]

Kelen,

Triarus still owns Northumberland (39) as well as Westmoreland (41) so has 1,050 points.

[KiwiWarlord]

Kelen,

Triarus still owns Northumberland (39) as well as Westmoreland (41) so has 1,050 points.

This from GD above

The home county is merely that.. a county worth 50pts.

So 1000 + 2x50 =1100 points

Correct GD ?

[awesum4]

Brian,

it was from me not Gavin, and Northumberland gives him his 1,000 point army, Westmoreland gives him an additional 50, so 1,050points. Gavin has already confirmed it is 1,000 for owning a single county and an extra 50 for each additional county.

The closer you get to Scotland the more the brain freezes and the harder basic maths becomes. Whereas down here in sub-tropical Cornwall our brains fair race through both Algebra and Trigonometry. It is fortunate for Parliament that Cornwall has never opened an artillery school, our shooting would have been devastating,

Andre

[KiwiWarlord]

Well GD has stated in Black & White ( see above post ) that the Home County is worth 50 points.
We can read our Hymn Books up here you know, they are in black & white too........