Spam Armies

[SimonLancaster]

It just becomes a ridiculous situation. I was almost 20-0 down before I was close to getting to his lines.

In my opinion, Carthage should get 2 regular cavalry preset and a maximum of 6 javelin cavalry with allies combined. This would make it more historical, playable and enjoyable. 6 javelin cavalry are still very potent and can cause a lot of problems.

[nyczar]

The other thing going on is Lundendorf is a master with the Hannibal List. I have been doing some research for contributions I made to some different threads on the topic of "spam" or lists made of cheap units and I was reminded that he won a classic division in the digital league with the Hannibal in Africa list, going 9-0. I have played Lundendorf maybe 10 times, winning only once. Ludendorf loves to nibble, nibble, nibble, and pounce. An opposing general needs to consider his opponents tendencies and if SLancaste didn't know Ludendorf was a Hannibal and skirmisher master, its not surprising that the game is going as it is.

So many games are won with list selection. This is what is happening here. It is not that it is spam or an anachronistic match up. It is that this GAME is deep and requires so much contemplation before the first click. One mistaken assumption about what the enemy will play and you will likely lose. I played Snugglebunnies last season or the season before and I was sure he would go cav in his selection. I prepared for this and he went infantry. The rest was fait accompli; I was beaten and it was about salvaging respect. I am probably crazy for entering all four divisions this year...my brain will be fried after 36 competitive set ups.

[TheGrayMouser]

It just becomes a ridiculous situation. I was almost 20-0 down before I was close to getting to his lines.

In my opinion, Carthage should get 2 regular cavalry preset and a maximum of 6 javelin cavalry with allies combined. This would make it more historical, playable and enjoyable. 6 javelin cavalry are still very potent and can cause a lot of problems.

I assume you made a mistake ( keyboard fumble?) but you GAVE the Numidian allies to your opponent when you set up the challenge. ( that is my understanding of the situation) No need to change the lists when you can create and accept the challenges you want.

[SimonLancaster]

Let me be clear.. I do think it is spam. Of course, Lundendorf is a good player, yes.

10 javelin cavalry with zero regular cavalry is not what you would call a normal historical match-up, I think. If Carthage had 6-7 skirmisher units, 2 regular cav and a max of 6 javelin cav then it is still a full-on skirmisher army...

Honestly, how many armies in the Classical era went to a battle with no regular cavalry? Even if the Numidians did I doubt that Carthage ever went to war with no regular cavalry.

[SimonLancaster]

It just becomes a ridiculous situation. I was almost 20-0 down before I was close to getting to his lines.

In my opinion, Carthage should get 2 regular cavalry preset and a maximum of 6 javelin cavalry with allies combined. This would make it more historical, playable and enjoyable. 6 javelin cavalry are still very potent and can cause a lot of problems.

I assume you made a mistake ( keyboard fumble?) but you GAVE the Numidian allies to your opponent when you set up the challenge. ( that is my understanding of the situation) No need to change the lists when you can create and accept the challenges you want.

If you read the thread you will see what my point is.. I think this particular army is a spam army more than anything else. I wanted to try out different armies to play and why not if they are available.

[TheGrayMouser]

It just becomes a ridiculous situation. I was almost 20-0 down before I was close to getting to his lines.

In my opinion, Carthage should get 2 regular cavalry preset and a maximum of 6 javelin cavalry with allies combined. This would make it more historical, playable and enjoyable. 6 javelin cavalry are still very potent and can cause a lot of problems.

I assume you made a mistake ( keyboard fumble?) but you GAVE the Numidian allies to your opponent when you set up the challenge. ( that is my understanding of the situation) No need to change the lists when you can create and accept the challenges you want.

If you read the thread you will see what my point is.. I think this particular army is a spam army more than anything else. I wanted to try out different armies to play and why not if they are available.

I did read the thread and of course you can try out various armies AND allied combos . Sorry, not critising or anything but it seemed like you were surprised by the army despite picking it. If you think Cartho w Numidian ally that is bad, wait til you try to fight Thracian armies that often have more light horse, and without any ally!!

[76mm]

If you think Cartho w Numidian ally that is bad, wait til you try to fight Thracian armies that often have more light horse, and without any ally!!

Been there, done that. Barely beat a Thracian army with a phalanx army once, my phalanxes were almost wiped out before they even got to the enemy line (which of course was on the back map edge), which is when the opponent started charging the swarms of light horse into the rear of the phalanxes. Boy, that was brutal.

[Ludendorf]

I'm also thinking of some of the light horse archer lists. If there's a unit that may be genuinely impossible to catch with medium cavalry unless it makes a mistake, it would be the light horse archer. Of course, those are more expensive, and can't defend themselves as well in melee against other light horse. But they're also hard to catch even with other light horse, unless they can be duped into standing and fighting.

And yet, they don't dominate the tournament scene. Quite the opposite I believe; it tends to be heavy and medium armies with a good balance of foot skirmishers, cavalry and different kinds of infantry which come out on top. I might be wrong, but when I think of a top tier list in Field of Glory II, I don't think of Parthia. (Though having been on the receiving end of Rexhurley's Sassanid light cavalry... that was a little bit like trying to breathe arrows instead of air.)

Even then he won because he had better heavy cavalry tactics, not purely because of the arrow storm.

[SimonLancaster]

The difference with the Thracian lists from what I can see is that a lot have horse archers which cost 32. Light javelin cavalry is 24. Yes, there are a few Thracian armies that can field up to 10 javelin cavalry units. But, another diffference is that those armies have around a maximum of 6 foot skirmishers at 24. Carthage + Numidia has 12 foot skirmishers at 24 available. It also have up to 11 javelin cavalry units available and not 10!

[cromlechi]

I'll save everyone some time here and say that I didn't choose the allied army. It was selected for me and I just accepted the game as normal.

Ahh, so your opponent bribed the Numidians to fight for YOUR side, clerical error perhaps by his scribe

Hoisted by his own petard I think they used to say lol

[desicat]

The difference with the Thracian lists from what I can see is that a lot have horse archers which cost 32. Light javelin cavalry is 24. Yes, there are a few Thracian armies that can field up to 10 javelin cavalry units. But, another diffference is that those armies have around a maximum of 6 foot skirmishers at 24. Carthage + Numidia has 12 foot skirmishers at 24 available. It also have up to 11 javelin cavalry units available and not 10!

How many skirmishers did you bring to the fight to screen your Pike units and Cavalry?

[SimonLancaster]

The difference with the Thracian lists from what I can see is that a lot have horse archers which cost 32. Light javelin cavalry is 24. Yes, there are a few Thracian armies that can field up to 10 javelin cavalry units. But, another diffference is that those armies have around a maximum of 6 foot skirmishers at 24. Carthage + Numidia has 12 foot skirmishers at 24 available. It also have up to 11 javelin cavalry units available and not 10!

How many skirmishers did you bring to the fight to screen your Pike units and Cavalry?

I had a good number. Around 6 or 7 skirmishers. But v 10 javelin cav and 6 or 7 skirmishers on his side they were soon dealt with.

[Schweetness101]

I understand your basic sentiment here, and how armies that spam anything can be annoying, whether it's medium foot, or light units or cheap heavies or horse archer armies. But, it's an historical game, and history isn't balanced, and neither is the game. My solution to this typically is just to only host battles with either balanced armies or armies which, if imbalanced, are imbalanced in the same or a complementary way to still make for a fun game. Or to make a mod lol.

If I were running a tournament on the other hand, I would probably exclude a goodly number of lists from competition, and maybe even ban allies altogether, to keep things competitive. The current FOG2DL runners also ban certain armies and with good reason from the tournament. Those spam armies are nice to have in the game in general though, in case that is what you are trying to simulate.

[SimonLancaster]

I have asked this question a number of times and no answer on this forum or in pm... if we are talking historical then how many times did a Carthaginian army go into battle with no regular cavalry?

I understand that if Carthage takes Numidian allies then there will be lots of light horse. But, what I have described above just seems like a spam army to me!

[SimonLancaster]

I understand your basic sentiment here, and how armies that spam anything can be annoying, whether it's medium foot, or light units or cheap heavies or horse archer armies. But, it's an historical game, and history isn't balanced, and neither is the game. My solution to this typically is just to only host battles with either balanced armies or armies which, if imbalanced, are imbalanced in the same or a complementary way to still make for a fun game. Or to make a mod lol.

If I were running a tournament on the other hand, I would probably exclude a goodly number of lists from competition, and maybe even ban allies altogether, to keep things competitive. The current FOG2DL runners also ban certain armies and with good reason from the tournament. Those spam armies are nice to have in the game in general though, in case that is what you are trying to simulate.

Banning allies from the Digital League! The revolution has begun!

[Schweetness101]

I understand your basic sentiment here, and how armies that spam anything can be annoying, whether it's medium foot, or light units or cheap heavies or horse archer armies. But, it's an historical game, and history isn't balanced, and neither is the game. My solution to this typically is just to only host battles with either balanced armies or armies which, if imbalanced, are imbalanced in the same or a complementary way to still make for a fun game. Or to make a mod lol.

If I were running a tournament on the other hand, I would probably exclude a goodly number of lists from competition, and maybe even ban allies altogether, to keep things competitive. The current FOG2DL runners also ban certain armies and with good reason from the tournament. Those spam armies are nice to have in the game in general though, in case that is what you are trying to simulate.

Banning allies from the Digital League! The revolution has begun!

haha nooooooooooooooo don't kill meeeeeee! I think they're fine in the league lol, I mean like if I ran my own league. I'd actually thought about doing a small tournament with a highly curated list. Like make just the major players of Classical Antiquity. Limit selection to a few major Carthaginian, Hellenistic, Roman etc...lists, and without allies. Might be nice to constrain things a bit like that for a tournament. Like a sweet spot somewhere between the FOG2DL normal divisions, and the themed event.

[SimonLancaster]

An unnamed important player also thinks that allies should be banned from the Digital League...

[SnuggleBunnies]

I mean, that is me, assuming I am important. I do think that the addition of allies makes for too many Swiss army knife type armies that can do anything, and reduces some of the difficulties posed by attempting to use a certain type of army in situations that it may not be optimal for.

But I also know that most people really like having allies, and I don't feel so strongly about it that I'd I dunno, boycott the league or something.

[cromlechi]

I mean, that is me, assuming I am important. I do think that the addition of allies makes for too many Swiss army knife type armies that can do anything, and reduces some of the difficulties posed by attempting to use a certain type of army in situations that it may not be optimal for.

But I also know that most people really like having allies, and I don't feel so strongly about it that I'd I dunno, boycott the league or something.

I think the Swiss Army criticism is legitimate but I guess it has to be balanced by the fact that some lists are not played because they are too narrow in unit type but with the Allies feature are more likely to be used. I used Welsh in one tournament with Allies, on their own I just would not have selected them as unit choice was too narrow. I think it's about getting the balance right in relation to how many and of what unit types Allies can be added. If I recall it seemed quite limited in FoG 1 and they had to sit under their own general.

[TheGrayMouser]

IMHO the Swiss Army knife effect is less about the lists or allies, it’s the ability to build the army AFTER you see the map. Solution: submit a fixed list to the organizers of tournaments which is then published once it starts, no “changies”