When does close combat commence

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:58 pm

However, if you charge someone and then find out they can be intercept charged, you can't take back the charge. This is in essence what has happened.

No. I have been pursuing and hit a BG in my turn, it is my opponent who has charged me. Since no close combat has occured should I not be given the option of evading? I may well get caught, but it would be my choice.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:20 pm

dave_r wrote:
However, if you charge someone and then find out they can be intercept charged, you can't take back the charge. This is in essence what has happened.
No. I have been pursuing and hit a BG in my turn, it is my opponent who has charged me. Since no close combat has occured should I not be given the option of evading? I may well get caught, but it would be my choice.

Yes, you have charged. Guys have routed in front of you, you've gone 'go get em boys' and impacted into other troops. Caught with your pants down you've charged into guys who have flank charged you...

Ian

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:45 pm

First off, neither the pursuit nor the charge was a flank charge.

Secondly - if you can point me to somewhere in the rules where it state I can't evade I would be most grateful.

I have outlined why I could:

They aren't in close combat as no impact or close combat melee has occured as per page 64 of the rules - therefore I can evade.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:01 am

dave_r wrote:First off, neither the pursuit nor the charge was a flank charge.

Secondly - if you can point me to somewhere in the rules where it state I can't evade I would be most grateful.

I have outlined why I could:

They aren't in close combat as no impact or close combat melee has occured as per page 64 of the rules - therefore I can evade.

Ok, it wasn't a flank charge. Hammy said 'the other side' in his op so I thought he meant charging INTO the side... just a misinterpretation, but doesn't change a thing IMHO.

You're in frontal edge to edge contact.

Can you point out in the rules where you CAN be in frontal edge to edge contact with non-routing enemy and NOT be in Close Combat.

What do you think they were doing? Having tea until the phase came around?

In an Impact phase you go straight onto impact combat so you don't see the delay. The only reason there is a delay in this case is a mechanism of the rules.

People don't go around saying 'oh, we can't shoot now because it's not the shooting phase'. Phases are mechanisms of the game. There was no chance of your troops evading just as there is no chance of charging troops evading interceptors.

It's cut and dried as far as I'm concerned.

Ian

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:13 am

I second Ian on this.
You contacted enemy as part of a pursuit. The combat is resolved in the next impact phase. You are committed to combat and therefore cannot evade.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:20 am

madcam2us wrote:Dave,

At the IWF I will met a kindred spirit.... Perhaps you've got some Irish in you? Mom's Gma/Gpa came from the Emerald Isle not too long ago....

Separated at birth?

Madcam.

Yes and you've both lost to me so you are total disasters.

PS Actually you two are pretty close in size and shape. And you are both above average drinkers. Yep you too could be separated at birth.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:05 am

hazelbark wrote:
madcam2us wrote:Dave,

At the IWF I will met a kindred spirit.... Perhaps you've got some Irish in you? Mom's Gma/Gpa came from the Emerald Isle not too long ago....

Separated at birth?

Madcam.
Yes and you've both lost to me so you are total disasters.

PS Actually you two are pretty close in size and shape. And you are both above average drinkers. Yep you too could be separated at birth.

We've never played FoG.

But you are 2-1 vs me... Something that will be corrected once we play again.

Madcam.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:09 am

A lucky American scribed:

Yes and you've both lost to me so you are total disasters.

That was only because the dust storm started. Without it you were minutes from a crushing defeat

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:25 am

You're in frontal edge to edge contact.

Which is clearly different from being "in close combat" as they are different statements.

Can you point out in the rules where you CAN be in frontal edge to edge contact with non-routing enemy and NOT be in Close Combat.

Yes - this one here. I would also point out that a pursuit move isn't a charge. The quote is "this is treated as a charge", however it isn't an actual charge.

Can one of the authors help here please?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:49 am

this is treated as a charge

Therefore you are treated as having charged

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:08 am

dave_r wrote:
You're in frontal edge to edge contact.
Which is clearly different from being "in close combat" as they are different statements.

Go on then Dave, quote the passage of the rules that clearly states this

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:25 am

hammy wrote:
dave_r wrote:
You're in frontal edge to edge contact.
Which is clearly different from being "in close combat" as they are different statements.
Go on then Dave, quote the passage of the rules that clearly states this

That should easily be solved by looking at the glossary definition of close combat, which amounts to "a BG is in close combat if it has joined a close combat".

Close combat is combat in the impact and melee phases.

The question of whether it is possible to join an impact phase combat in a phase other than the impact phase I leave to rules philosophers.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:29 am

1. Who edited my post?

2. Nowehere does it say that just because you have charged you cannot evade. To stop the first question, you cannot evade from an intercept as this is not a charge.

3. Being in front-edge contact is not a defining clause of being in close combat. If it was (and it would certainly make this easier) then it should have been defined in the glossary!

4. Lawrence sums it up rather well I think.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:33 am

My view is you are in impact combat from the time of contact untill the combat is resolved.

Consider the following situation

Code: Select all

      CVCV
      CVCV

aaaaaa
lhlhlhlh


        bbbbbbbb
        lhlhlhlh

          LHLH
          LHLH

CV is enemy CV facing down having declared a charge.
LH is enemy LH facing up having declared.
a is friendly LH facing up.
b is friendly LH facing down.
Friendly LH has lance and is superior, enemy units are average and armed only with bow.

LH's charge is resolved - b chooses to not evade, and is contacted.
CV's charge is then resolved - a tries to stand but fails the roll, and then rolls a 1 for VMD. Cv then rolls a 6 for VMD. The distances are such that the CV will hit a and setp forward into b.

Can b now evade? By dave's argument it is not in close combat as no dice have been rolled.
By my view it is in close combat as it has been "legally contacted" by a charge.

EDIT: Added
Thinking about it some more - once the dice are rolled you aren't in impact combat any more as that is over.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:33 am

dave_r wrote:2. Nowehere does it say that just because you have charged you cannot evade. To stop the first question, you cannot evade from an intercept as this is not a charge.

Actually it is.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:34 am

dave_r wrote:1. Who edited my post?

I did. I thought you might prefer it to being moderated for gratuitous offensiveness.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:39 am

Dave, since you yourself quoted that it is treated as a charge that should end your own argument. It is treated as a charge so the BG is treated as having charged and ended in contact.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:20 am

That is not the argument! It is whether or not the BG is in close combat or not!

Just because you have charged doesn't mean you are in close combat. If you charge and fail to make contact with anybody you are not in close combat - yet you have charged haven't you? Following on from this if another unit broke in the impact phase and this BG that charged was LH it would be able to evade wouldn't it? Yet it has charged?

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:23 am

I did. I thought you might prefer it to being moderated for gratuitous offensiveness.

Apologies. It wasn't meant as a derogatory remark.

Richard then also let me know it was grammatically incorrect

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:22 pm

Yes - this one here. I would also point out that a pursuit move isn't a charge. The quote is "this is treated as a charge", however it isn't an actual charge.

Can one of the authors help here please?

If it looks like a charge, acts like a charge and gives the result of a charge - then it's a charge

You're in frontal edge to edge contact.

Which is clearly different from being "in close combat" as they are different statements.

We tried to leave out as much as possible of the 'blindingly obvious' from the rules, because otherwise they would appear to overly complex to the newcomer.

But if you need an answer to this......
Any unit that would get a combat dice when the next combat phase comes around is clearly 'in combat'.
Any other definition would negate all sorts of other options for counter-charging, intercepting, evading etc. There are clearly defined exceptions to this, but none of them affect units that are in contact with either their own or their opponents front edge.