The Russian Campaign 1941 / The West Campaign 1940 (and other battles) - All Multiplayer

[conboy]

How to create unit? I need polish partisans

You can use Russian partisans and assign a Polish flag to them. In the scenario editor, select the USSR partisans and before placing them on the map, change the flag to Poland by selecting it from the pull-down menu above the unit selection row. This of course assumes that Poland and USSR are on the factions list in both the scenario and the campaign.

conboy

[Parriego]

To the first question (Mascarenhas), yes, at first I thought I would make it a singler player but it would take a long time that I don't have now, but we will take it into account.

About the comment of "conboy", thanks I did not know, I write it down for the next version.

[nero156]

Conboy but its ok about polish engeneers. They can lay mines, get the town and destroy bridges in Poland.German side must pay attention for them and keep some forces to destroy it. Partisans do not make any sens actions
It is simulate huge polish underground forces

[conboy]

Engineers be wayyyy badder than partisans!

Good choice, kick they butt back to Prussia.

conboy

[KarisFraMauro]

I notice there's a game waiting in multiplayer for this, but it's version 2.3. Looks like the only version I can download here is 2.4, so... I'm out of luck? Also I didn't know you designed scenarios Parriego. Was it really you I managed to beat in coral sea, because if so now I know that was definitely a fluke on my part.

[Brenmusik]

A new version!

[KarisFraMauro]

Decided to try hosting my own game of this in version 2.4, and it's good! Well it's good if you're Germany and it's turn one anyway, heh. As the description says, I look forwards to seeing how things develop further down the road... If anybody feels like playing as Germany themselves, I'm up for giving it a go as the ruskies.

[Parriego]

Yeah you probably beat me I'm a really bad player sometimes

[KarisFraMauro]

Hee hee, I just lost a match in that sandstorm map actually. All credit to the player that beat me, he took an early lead in victory points and I was never able to make it up. Anyway I look forwards to our next game, and seeing how much fun it is on Ivan's side for that matter.

[nero156]

Anybody wants to play this scenario with me?

[KarisFraMauro]

Absolutely! The only reason I was holding back from joining is I notice you set up a game for version 2.5, which still has a buggy frozen tank that's fixed in version 2.6. Are you playing as Russia or Germany?

Also now I think of it, I've noticed an odd movement issue on two occasions. One involves moving a russian tank through forest east of Moscow. It's one of the reinforcements and for some reason a white arrow pops up when I try moving it west. It does actually move thankfully, and it's only when it goes through a forest along a rail line. So it doesn't actually affect gameplay, just a weird visual thing. I'm only mentioning it because it feels similar to a problem that happened when I was playing as Germany. I finally moved that big artillery (I forget what it's called, something 1940... It's the northern of the two "special" artillery) all the way to Leningrad and was about to send it through a forest when it literally bounced off. I get it not being able to move in certain terrain, but that white movement arrow appeared again only this time it did affect gameplay. Clicked on the forest hex east of the artillery and instead it moved exactly one space west. Partisan gremlins maybe

[SchwarzeBaron]

NEW VERSION: 04-06-2020
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fxl004y9my1o ... tqXea?dl=0 V.2.6 (Nero156 & Parriego)

One of my friends and I got together to play this campaign a few days ago since the anniversary of Barbarossa is tomorrow. We're currently on Turn 6 and enjoying the game very much (I highly respect the amount of work put into this, great job!), although there are a lot of kinks that I think can be sorted out and the fixes could really transform this game into an awesome experience. Seeing that the last update was this April, I thought I could pass on my observations.

1. The timeline: This might be more of an aesthetic issue, but it bothers me that the dates that correspond with each turn advance much faster than the speed of the German advance. One example is that when I, playing as the Germans and Axis allied forces, managed to surround and defeat the 11th Army Baltic Defense force with ease, the game informs me that it's August 31st by the time the first panzer units reach Riga in Latvia. Historically, the Germans fully occupied the whole of Latvia by July 10th, only 18 days after the beginning of Barbarossa. Even after I've defeated and routed Red Army units on the frontier and advance into the Soviet Union without any resistance, my units look to be advancing very slowly in comparison with the timeline. I think this can be easily remedied by changing the turn schedule to one week per turn, rather than almost 3 weeks per turn. I don't know if this is trying to account for the lack of changing weather factors in the game which did slow down the Germans, but it feels like a very odd way of replicating it considering the speed of which the Wehrmacht historically advanced into the Soviet Union during the first few months. My friend and I have thought about simply ignoring the date posted for each turn we do and following our own, but the scripted reinforcement schedule for each side renders this mute as we could be fighting with T-34/85s and Panthers in early 1942 if we followed our own timeline. I doubt that at this rate my panzer divisions can reach Moscow in winter 1941 per the game's timeline.
2. The map: This can be related to the first problem in terms of fixing the issue. If the movement values for each individual unit in the game cannot be increased to reflect the timeline, then the map needs to be decreased in size. The map for Russia is simply *too large* for the units involved. Personally, I love monster games and operational theater maps; it's a large part of why I wanted to play this scenario for Barbarossa instead of Erik's Army Group-centered (not to be confused with A.G. Center) maps. I love creating historical maps and detailing them as much as possible, and this is certainly a project I'd love to work on with you. However, there are at least a few changes that can be made to the current one if the previous ones I've listed can't be done. Please change all of the terrain that roads are on to clear terrain, no matter where the context of the terrain is. Seriously, why is it that infantry and tanks cannot go faster through a forest or swamp hex with a road compared to if it didn't have one? What is the point of that road in the first place? I am constantly frustrated by my one-hex per turn advance on these "road" hexes through difficult terrain (particularly in Belorussia between Brest-Litovsk and Minsk) and this is certainly the weakest part of the map when considered on its own terms. Compared to this aggravation, the weird distortion of north and south Russia being pulled to the center of the map is a distant second problem. There are many other terrain problems too numerous to recount here, but I recognize that you've done a serious amount of work on this project and I highly respect that. Still, there is a lot of room for improvement in this area.
3. German panzer units: These units are incredibly OP. Despite all of the heavy fighting on the frontier, my tanks have barely a -1 reduction in strength to a few units, with one having -2 reduction in strength. And this is only for Army Groups North and Center where they've engaged the 11th Tank Corps. Army Group South hasn't experienced any attrition at all despite destroying much of the Soviet armored forces in and around Lvov. This is a little ridiculous in how easily I can overpower Soviet units without taking any damage to my own forces, considering historically the first few months of Barbarossa incurred more losses on their own than the entirety of losses sustained by the Wehrmacht in the past two years. I think these units should either be reduced in experience and/or strength at the beginning of the game or that several Soviet units should have more experience and/or anti-tank weapons in order to grind these units down. I know that this is corps-level combat and anti-tank units are implied, but there needs to be a way to balance this, because it's very ahistorical to depict the German panzertruppen as nearly invincible foes. They took serious losses in the opening stages of Barbarossa. This was perhaps the largest factor that went into the operation's ultimate defeat as the Germans did not anticipate losing so many men and tanks and simply could not replace them all in time.

Thank you for reading my absurdly long comment and feel free to respond with any observations of your own. I have stated that I would love to work on a new map that could better adapt this great scenario to game realities, so if you're interested feel free to connect with me on that.

Cheers,
Niklaus

[KarisFraMauro]

I've made it to around turn 40 and while it's true the Germans have a huge advantage on turn 6, believe me it gradually diminishes. A lot! At least that's my excuse for getting destroyed by Nero, heh That said maybe there is a way to address your concerns without turning the mid to late game into a repeat of history. I wonder if it's possible to weaken Germany a little at the start, but strengthen them a little as things progress? I wouldn't want the map to be shrunk though since the size is such a big part of the appeal. I've played a couple other huge maps, I believe by Erik, but both Poland and Operation Olympic were so unbalanced as to be unworkable in multiplayer.

[nero156]

SchwarzeBaron, of course this scenario has a lot of shortcuts. Map, timeline etc. I agree. We cannot spent months to prepare everything. Also game has some limits. So you have absolutely right in some points. Just few words explanation from my side:
I thinks Russia is so big and it's ok to move one army from middle to south or nord direction takes a lot of time, only tanks can move fast or other units by train.
We want to avoid situation that german stop on the border and cannot win first battle. Of course historicaly german loses was big but is it a sense to buy forces on the border? I played on game and my opponent try to save front line and made havy losses in german forces but then road to MOscow was open. There are many possibilities. We dont want to copy war just to make a simulation for main leaders
Maybe the solution is to give russians on the start foor example 500 rp...? and they can spend it to increase front units or create units on second, third defence line.


about overpowered German panzer forces don't worry it is only first 30-35 turns... russian should invest in Anti tank weapons and improve infantry for version 42 when is possible. Russia lost everything on the border in 1941 in first month of war. Here is the same. You should prepare next deffence line and keep your forces in good shape as long as you can. minialize losses and build army every for round russia get some new tanks and infantry its important to not loose everything so quick, later german has not enough rp to recover all forces so target for german is to get one main target as quick as they can and for russia protect all 3 targets till 40 round. Its possible. then if german not realize it - russian get extra rp and can win the war. Opposite : if german keep forces in the good shape and take for exapmle Lennigrad get extra rp for quick atack for next town.

Maybe some details are far from historical timline but I hope decisons which you have to take for both sides are the same as leaders on that time:
German: Direction of the main atack (imposible to atack 3 target towns together) where and how to use planes, after first rounds it looks german can do everything, they have strong forces free rp to use... but everywere they lost some single points on units. country is big and russia can win is some areas.

For russia: escape or defend every point? Invest rp for planes?, anti tank?, how to organize defence?. Russian has enough time to organize defence in few variants, have enough prestige to improve some forces to fight against strong panzers and german planes. Russian should spent every rp very smart! destroying bridges and minefields are little expensive, maybe its better to buy some fighters to stop Luftwaffe?

Version 2.6 From round 14 german gets +300rp, russia +475. Then round 24 russia gets +515rp, till round 39 where is german +415 and russia +555.
So Russia must survive till 40 round with 3 cities and as strong as possible.

I would like to play with you. I can take russians to check how is going if you like. Maybe I can surprise you
what is yout nick name in OOB?

[Parriego]

Very good comments from everyone, thanks to ScwarzeBaron, KarisFraMauro and Nero156.
Just to add that I would also like it to be more real but also nero156 as I had to take into account that it had to be a fun game and the limitations of the game, but I am sure that it can be improved a lot.

It would be very interesting if nero and ScwarzeBaron played and later you make more modifications for future versions, but wait! that today with KarisFraMauro (Thank you!)) we have detected a problem naval with the Soviets, today I am going to make a small naval modification and put version 2.7 for you to provide.

NOTE: in turn 100 how the USSR recovers, hahaha.

Saludos !!

[KarisFraMauro]

On the topic of naval modifications, I remember reading a few years back something interesting the Germans tried. At some point they wanted a u-boat for the Crimean campaign, but weren't able to get one via a water route. So they disassembled an entire submarine and shipped it overland (by rail, I assume?). Not quite as bizarre as Churchill wanting to turn an iceberg into an aircraft carrier (icebergs occasionally flip!) but still generates a decidedly odd mental image.

[nero156]

It is also a problem that test of the big scenario cost a lot of time in this case. We spent so much time with Parriego not for adjustments but much more for test the scenario with diffrent strategy....
When you add or reduce some units or rp you have to play minimum 40 rounds to see results

If we try to be very historical we just repeat history and what else. Maybe better to make start since 1942? German historicaly has a very low chances to win this war... if you take on accout USA support and other events.
Even if Russia lose Leningrad and Stalingrad they have next cities and more and more teritory

What do we have now? Elite german army with very strong Pz III and IV bcs expirience level. And big USSR army just on the border.

I agree with you about difficult terrain on the middle of the map. But there is difficult terrain in the real. German should go around ! Only limited forces should pass it.

If german go to fast to moscow we should add rp or forces tu russia bcs then ussr has no chances.

For sure there is a lot of room to improve.

But I played few very intresting games with completly diffrent strategy and diffrent results!!!
I beat russian very quick. I see survive russians after lost Lenningrad and Moscow and very difficult fight against last Stalingrad.
I made few very succesful traps when I play russians and surround 2 big corps of the germans.

What I like there is a lot of possibilities! Not olny one way or copy historical battles one by one from brest, smolensk, kiev and then moscow/stalingrad- then One year balanced war and then german runaway to berlin

We are not stalin and hitler. We are independent leaders and we create our own game. I had counter attack from Moscow. I had stalingrad encirclement etc. Thaks a lot for Parriergo for his work bcs I have so much fun in this scenario. I, m planning now to check what happend if russia build a lot of fighters. Without luftwaffe is so hard for germans to break the lines.... I love to tests new strategy



By the way. The movement in this game is rediculous.
Soldiers can walk almost so fast like tanks... tanks can go amost like trains. We cannot simulate loosing of supply for germans and weather conditions. This is bigest problem to make simulation perfect i think.
Egeneers cannot repair rail bridges...

[nero156]

Parriego russian fleet in version 2.7 looks powerfull. I don't have answer how it works.
Do you not affrarid Russian will clean Finland in few turns? Maybe we should add some coastal guns and anti aircraft a little in the back for fins to avoid situation that russian fleet will clean all axis forces on the nord. The range should be calculated to keep russian fleet only near Lenningrad. I like idea to make a Lenningrad little stronger.
I think also Russian should have a some start rp. I think 300rp is ok.
My proposals:
1.3x coastal guns Finnland
2. 2x AA guns Finland
3. 300 rp only for startround for russians.
4. one more line see mines near Lenningrad
5 increase size of Lenningrad to the right 3 hexes then russia can use artilery or AA guns and add one Flag there.
6. remove some swams on the road in the big swamp area on the middle of the map.
7. Add few artilery without transport on the border for russia to make some damage on german forces but not slow down them so much.

What do you think guys?

[Parriego]

I understand what you are saying, the problem we found with the Russians is that they can create unlimited MO-2 Guard Ships at a cost of 10. I increased naval forces to the Soviets and Germans, the latter with the option to also create more naval units if require it. I am going to reduce those Soviet units again since until they get close to Leningrad the damage they could do in finland is very big. I do it right now, it will be the same version 2.7.

Download the file again !!

[KarisFraMauro]

Now I'm getting more and more curious about version 2.7... Although I already have waaaay too many games going at once.