proline wrote:hurly wrote:If Rudel then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g he just needed a hitting accuracy of approximately 4% (or 1 good hit every 2 air raids on a basically defenseless target) to destroy 500 tanks with an amount of 12000 bullets on board. Not meant to belittle Rudels career as a pilot. But the percentages needed to accomplish his kills seem to be a little less out of this world if you crunch the numbers
First, he flew closer to a shocking 2500 raids- nearly two a day, rain or shine. That's amazing. Second, his kills against other vehicles, artillery, trains, etc. moved his number of kills per per mission up probably well higher than 50%. Third, 300 of those tank kills were in the last year of the war when the USSR had air superiority. His aircraft was shot down 30 times. Much of his flying was low-level and within easy range of ground air defense. In short, his enemies were far, far from defenseless.
well I said Rudel
then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g
which seems to be a pretty accurate number considering he was honored for 1000 air raids before the Ju87G even appeared in combat in 1943
Rudel also switched to a FW190f later on if you substract these numbers from his total
Then to the type of typical air raids Rudel flew with the ju87g
basically these planes shoot one bullet a piece from each Autocannon providing the 87g with 6 attacks (probably less since the video I linked shows that multiple shots were regularly fired at the targets.)
so with these rate of fire the Ju87g is quicklöy out of ammo while basically they are called by groung troops to strike and repell incoming tank attacks fire their stuff at them and probably clean up other targets with the leftover ammo.
It's highly unlikely that a tank rush is backed up heavily by pretty immobile antiair so I assume the typical Ju87g air raid goes like this
Start from an useabale airfield close to the front lines and attack onrushing tanks as reported by German ground troops. So probably not a lot of searching and flying over enemy ground, go in there, strike quickly, out of ammo after 6 (or less) attacks and go back to your airfield as quickly as possible to reload and refuel (which might not even be necessary all the time) then go airborne again asap and attack the next targets already spotted and called for by ground troops.
So probably not a lot of expose to antiair and certainly no interest to engage with enemy aircraft at all. The fact that enemy fighters trying to shoot you down have to go after you flying back to your airfield mostly over friendly ground helps a lot.
I can imagine that on a busy day with heavy combat 10 raids per day is not an uncommon occurrence. SO the total of 2500 and about 1000 in the Ju87g airraids is certainly quite an accomplishment for a pilot, probably not for a Squadron of these planes even if they are done with multiple pilots. Not sure if bad weather is helpful or not for these tank hunting attacks. Certainly harder to attack precisely, defintely more safety from enemy fighter attacks as well. So maybe weather not as much a factor for Rudel after all as for enemy fighters providing cover.
Just speculating on a normal day takeoff and landing was more dangerous for these raids (depending on the level of air superiority the Russians had by then) than the combat itself as antiair and enemy fighters never knew exactly where the tankhunters will strike while the ground targets and their positions are pretty well known coming in on them.
Well and also surviving 30 times shot down is certainly a feat, but we have no data what shot down exactly means. That can vary from from just having to do an emergency landing because the plan was not able to reach their airfields up to what we imagine going down with wings or other vital parts of the planes lost and going into an uncontrollable stall. Still speculating here the emergency landing on a flat spot somewhere is more common than the crash and burn type. The trick is returning to home soil if possible or just not get caught by ground forces if that was not possible. Still this is very different from airraids the Strat Bombers do. Not a lot of time apporoaching targets over hostile country, probably even less time flying back over hostile ground. And we don't know about the air cover provided by german fighters for such raids. The numbers of takedowns for the German Fighter Aces seem to imply that even with Soviet Air Superioty they were more than capable do an efficient job shooting down enemy planes in large numbers.
But all of these are mute poits to the point I wanted to made in the first place (accuracy needed for Rudel in a Ju87g to hunt down 500+ tanks) and you tried to dilute with basically correct numbers that may have no big value on this matter.
If a Ju87g attacks a tank or any other moving ground target the ground target is likely in a very helpless position to defend itself. And according to the massive amount of tanks and other stuff marching forward there were plenty of them to pick from.
The trick for a Ju87g pilot is not to get into any retaliation at all, go back to your airfield asap reload and do the next raid in a hurry.
But as I tried to argue what accuracy is needed to accomplish Rudel numbers in kills per raid, it would be intersting to have some data to compare from other Ju87g pilots even those more unlucky in their career. It is very well possible that some unheralded dudes that had just a few flights accomplished a even or higher hitting accuracy than Rudel himself.
I also have no idea about the tactics of Ju87g attacks and all, but since the Germans used a Hero System for Fighter Pilots where the TopGuns had one (Rotte) or even more Planes with them that had just the Task to cover the Leader from enemy Attacks, it is very well possible that Rudel as the most highly decorated German Soldier in WW2 also was flying under special Cover later on.
Or maybe he was just a crazy Dude that did not bother for any danger and got more than his fair Share of Luck.
