Lists for Japanese c1350-1500AD

[Malidor]

The world is full of samurai fetishist. The era of samurai as super-swordsmen is alaso their era of military and political irrelevamce. It's a sad comment that Miyamoto Musashi is a hosehold word and William Marshall is unknown.

The popularity of Go Rin No Sho during the 80's helps. If you can get L'Histoire de Guillaume le Marechal on Oprah's Book Club then perhaps your hero will become a household name too

[Templar]

The number of hattamoto a Daimyo would have varied considerably as did the Hattamoto's actual effectiveness and skill. Continueing with nobunaga as an example he could call upon 4000 hattamoto during the height of his power.

I still would not consider these Elite even though they are hattamoto. In his case Superior Cavalry that can dismount as superior medium foot with skilled swordsmen would fit.

Others may have Elite hattamoto maybe not. I think what should set the hattamoto apart from the run of the mill Samurai is not their skill but rather regular samurai should have swordsmen and hattamoto should have skilled swordsmen.

I also suspect that the armies will be made up of entirely mixed battlegroups or at least they should be historically speaking.

Also the whole command structure of the Sengoku era army would mean that nearly the entire force would be made up of Allied contingents.

I would find the way Ashigaru are treated as interesting if all the clans are going to be represented by the same list.

Each clan had their own ways in which the Ashigaru fought with the yari. Some clans would require that their Ashigaru have the offensive Spearmen rule others the Defensive Spearmen rule and others wouldn't have either. Also some clans made much more use of Ashigaru armed with a pike then others. Nobunaga's army seemed to live or die by how their pikemen were used clans like the Chosokobe maybe didn't use them at all. The same goes with the arqeubus, Nobunaga made great use of it, the Hojo stubbornly stuck with the bow up until the bitter end.

All of these things in my opinion need to be considered because I am yet to see a game that doesn't concentrate specifically on the Sengoku era actually get the armies of the period correct. There is far to much of a tendency to treat all samurai armies the same because they all hail from Japan. if they are to be treated correctly then one needs to think of japan at the time as much the same as europe. Each major clan being its own nation because they in effect were.

[Malidor]

Don't forget that FoG strictly ends in 1500, so Sengoku considerations will but cut somewhat short (eg: no Arquebus).

We've seen other troop types previously given Pike regraded to Spear (eg Medieval Scots) so it's possible Ashigaru will yet remain optioned as Offensive Spear or Defensive Spear only. If it's any shorter than a telephone pole it might be a spear these days

I'm not convinced that Japan needs as many lists as Europe simply because (as I've said) they'll most probably be sharing a book with the rest of Asia. Besides, I'm confident that at least the most popular clans will be depictable with a clever list. Look to the Classical Greek list for an example of 'one list to rule them all' - plenty of options and compulsories all based on which flavour you are fielding - all while maintaining a degree of list efficiency within the broader game.

[Templar]

That is a good point as well, I am really not interested in the Sengoku era before 1545 when the arquebus was introduced and am not interested after 1585 when the shogunate was pretty much wrapped up in one way or another. The whole korea thing is a big yawn fest for me.

So in short I will probably have to make my own lists for the time frame I am interested in like my group is doing with WM Ancients.

[WhiteKnight]

It may be that many aspects of Japanese military history require special rules to create the feel of their fighting style and customs in a tabletop game. FOG may not include the right mechanisms or it might need a lot of adaptation. That's always going to be an issue where you have one set of rules to cover so much of military history, based around the traditions of European and the Middle Eastern cultures.

On a different theme but might be worth thinking about, the best Zulu War games I played had both sides playing by totally different "rules".

Martin

[carlos]

Assuming equal skill between a samurai with katana and a foot knight with broadsword I would expect the samurai to come out with the POA advantage... although as I've admitted I'm biased

There are almost no parts of a foot knight's armour that the katana can penetrate. Whereas the broadsword...

[takedakiwi]

Firstly apologies- at the start of the last reply I substituted Korvus for Malidor!

Nik- yes of course you are correct skilled swordsman is foot only, spotted that after the post while pricing up the army. Of course they can dismount (and did to fight in the mountains etc) so could they use it then? Mounted samurai will be higher status and more likely to have had better teachers/more instruction than their groundling counterparts IMHO.

As to superior. Superior I believe best replicates the stubborness characteristic of retained samurai of the period. And the skilled swordsman here reflects not just the katana or tachi but also short to mid length yari, naginata, nagamaki and nodachi which in the classical martial arts AND from the evidence of contemporary prints were wielded in skilled fencing techniques rather than used in a fashion justifying Heavy Weapon or Spear.

Super-swordsmen? Compared to their contemporaries, those described above were. Bear in mind they beat everyone else they faced in a stand-up fight, right up to the Korean invasion and until they were swamped by the Ming. Even then they were defeated by being bottled up in castles by superior numbers.

Bear in mind also that the samurai are never going to be more than say 35% of the army by volume.

Those rustic samurai who were also part time farmers, were too poor to afford good training for their sons or were ronin trying to find a place as retainers would also have lesser skills, armour and sticking power. From the Onin war through to the say 1520s these could represent a fair proportion of the foot samurai component of some clans.

Hatamoto? Good point Malidor. I am thinking maybe one foot bg of 4-6 bases or cav bg of 4 bases, representing hatamoto and their personal retainers all of who are extra keen to catch the eye of the Daimyo on the big day. Also including the occasional elite unit like Hojo Soun's famous "Yellow Regiment".

Templar is right about different fighting characteristics, however most of that evidence is from the c16, outside our period and, I argue just as likely to be a reaction to earlier practice as an evolution. EG the Oda tendency to use large numbers of well drilled Ashigaru, who were probably a but more biddable than the aggressive samurai!

Bear in mind the Samurai list will have only a certain amount of space available in the book too!


Now there is nothing to stop players reflecting their opinions on individual clans in their own lists for scenarios etc, but here we are talking about what will be allowed in the Official List for competition and pickup games.

John

[Templar]

Assuming equal skill between a samurai with katana and a foot knight with broadsword I would expect the samurai to come out with the POA advantage... although as I've admitted I'm biased

There are almost no parts of a foot knight's armour that the katana can penetrate. Whereas the broadsword...

Throughout most of the Sengoku era samurai used a broadsword and not the katana which was a relativly late comer to the period. Not sure at the point you are trying to make.

Also bear in mind that samurai armies would have very little mounted troops and none of them would be the knights equivilant of medieval europe. "cavalry" in samurai armies was a mixed formation that consisted mostly of ashigaru on foot. For every horse mounted samurai (of which each retainer could call on about 40-60) there were 2-4 ashigaru on foot along side him. Even then it wouldn't be unusual for those horse mounted samurai to be broken up and ditributed throughout the retainer's force to act as junior officers.

[Malidor]

Assuming equal skill between a samurai with katana and a foot knight with broadsword I would expect the samurai to come out with the POA advantage... although as I've admitted I'm biased

There are almost no parts of a foot knight's armour that the katana can penetrate. Whereas the broadsword...

I've already admitted bias but now I'll concede the example was poor. Unless either side has Heavy Weapon their target's protection is a separate concern in FoG, and even I will agree the katana is not so good that it negates mail (unless armpits and groins count - yes you can thrust with a katana, it's less effective but it can be done). Storm of Arrows rates foot knight as Heavy Weapon although I suspect this is due more to polearms than broadswords. Suffice to say my example is incorrect.

[nikgaukroger]

Nik- yes of course you are correct skilled swordsman is foot only, spotted that after the post while pricing up the army. Of course they can dismount (and did to fight in the mountains etc) so could they use it then? Mounted samurai will be higher status and more likely to have had better teachers/more instruction than their groundling counterparts IMHO.

You just define what they dismount as and that could include skilled swordsman.

[irondog068]

This peroid is in the era of "The Onin Wars" This was a change in Japanese tactics. Early Samurai armor mad the Samurai nothing more than a gun platform only able to shoot to his left at a 45 degree angle. Retainers followed (keeping up with the horses) protecting there lords. Later as armor got better the need for more light troops was needed. These were the Ashigaru. Some time in this peroid is the first time this title shows up. But since they were paid in loot they were not reliable. There weapon of choice was bow (yumi) and (yari) for the most part. With large number of Ashigaru the Samurai needed someting to combat them since they could not shoot them all down. That is why the yari was used more and more by the Samurai. Also the reason why the katana became more in use. Samurai would have either Katana/yumi or katana/yari either mounted or on foot. as we near the "Age of Country at War" and the use of the Teppo (musket) around 1550 you see a more shift it yari and teppo. I would call the Samurai skilled swordsman, armored, offensive spear or bow. Ashigaru swordsmen, protected, either defensive spear, heavy cutting weapon or bow.

The loss to Korea had more to do with Logistics than troops. I have already written off FoG for Samurai. I have to many 28mm Perry to sit around and not use because someone says "The rules say so". There are better rules out there for the Samurai peroid of 1550 to 1615 (end of the Age of Country at War with the fall of Osaka)

[Malidor]

I believe we already discussed some of these concerns on the Yahoo list some time ago, assuming you are the same 'Irondog'.

Again, don't forget FoG strictly ends in 1500 I appreciate that it's easy to get carried away when making Samurai lists, but our add-on cannot exceed the specifications of our platform (sorry, I've just been playing with Facebook).

Giving a single base both sword and spear is unconventional in FoG ~ typically a unit only has one such capability. Theoretically it's possible however I don't think it's the sort of thing the designers had in mind. It would be more appropriate within the game rules to keep each individual base committed to -either- sword or spear. A battlegroup of Samurai could therefore be depicted as a mixed group of spear bases and sword bases to keep it in line with your thoughts (not necessarily saying I agree, just suggesting a better way to depict it within the rules).

Ashigaru really shouldn't have sword or heavy weapon capabilities. Defaulting them to Defensive Spear with options to replace them either completely or partially with Offensive Spear would feel better. I understand the reasoning that "Naginata = Heavy Weapon; my Ashigaru have Naginata therefore they should have Heavy Weapon" but the end result is that you have Ashigaru that negate their opponent's armour, which makes them more potent on the table than what they should be. Considerations of how they will play against non-historical opponents in non-themed tournaments is opening another can of worms but may be worth mentioning in regard to this point.

I believe it has already been said that capabilites are not a reflection of what weapons the troops are holding but rather a way to make the units play the right way on the table, for example Legions having Impact instead of Javelin despite holding pila (it makes them feel like Legions when we play the game). The same methodology must be applied to a Japanese list ~ worry less about what they are holding and more about how they will play.

[SirGarnet]

Again, don't forget FoG strictly ends in 1500 I appreciate that it's easy to get carried away when making Samurai lists, but our add-on cannot exceed the specifications of our platform . . . .

FoG might not be Y1.5K compliant, but even if we are out of warranty I think the engine is robust and should still run for a while with some localized add-ons. The terminal date for service life is going to be determined by whether heavy use of firearms in the Japanese tactical context will cause systems failure.

Supported by what you say below, the engineering challenge is to (1) understand the tactical behavior and dynamics of the armies at that time and (2) determine whether, with some tinkering, this platform can support it. Seems like you are making progress on that.

I believe it has already been said that capabilites are not a reflection of what weapons the troops are holding but rather a way to make the units play the right way on the table, for example Legions having Impact instead of Javelin despite holding pila (it makes them feel like Legions when we play the game). The same methodology must be applied to a Japanese list ~ worry less about what they are holding and more about how they will play.

[irondog068]

Yes I am the same guy. And just because the rules say IT ENDS AT 1500 PEROID! means not much as I have seen more than 1 set of rules that were good that were put in diffrent peroids. And slipping past 1500 to 1550 and even 1600 is not much of a stretch since the rules cover several centurys. Whats 50 years among friends. Also keep in mind there are 3 basic eras of Samurai to keep it simple Gempi, Onin and Age of country at war. The armies looked alot diffrent in each peroid. Samurai in early would be bow or heavy cutting weapon (both naganata and no dachi). Retiners either naganata or yari (defensive I would guess). As the retainers went more to Ashigaru the Yari got longer and the naganata got less used (much like the swiss halberd). The no dachi almost is gone. And it would be a poor Ashigaru force that relied on just the naganata as it would be tore apart by the samurai cavalry and there yari.

And if you really want to know of the several hundered Samurai I have painted I have maybe 10 naganata mostly for change of pace. Except for my 6 monks who all have the evil looking things. So no, I don't want them because my figures have them. Musch like the Swiss halberders they are obsolete by the latter peroid. I don't have many halberders either.

[Templar]

The no-dachi being gone by the Sengoku era and the katana being used before that period is completly counter to everything I know about the armies at the time.

[nikgaukroger]

Yes I am the same guy. And just because the rules say IT ENDS AT 1500 PEROID! means not much as I have seen more than 1 set of rules that were good that were put in diffrent peroids. And slipping past 1500 to 1550 and even 1600 is not much of a stretch since the rules cover several centurys. Whats 50 years among friends.

As has been said before, feel free to do what you want but the official lists will almost certainly have a 1500AD hard cut off.

[irondog068]

You are correct about the no dachi. I forgot what Japanese movie but they had a "crew served" no dachi taking down hordes of ashigaru. It was great fun in the movie.

[takedakiwi]

Chaps

Silence is due to:

A distractions of Very New Baby (the son of a wargamer and therefore named Alexander);

Awaiting the arrival of my copy of Storm of Arrows so I can see how army lists are formatted!

Some thoughts tho in the meantime.

The list will stop at 1500. Yes the rules will function up to the widespread adoption of the musket, but the rules also stop at 1500 so the list will for competition purposes

The naginata is not a "heavy weapon", it is, and is used as, a sword on a stick in fencing type action. Or by the untrained for poking and slashing. Samurai or monks with naginata are swordsmen or skilled swordsmen. A similar argument applies to the no-dachi ("big sword").

Yari is used for a multitude of weapons, from 2m to 5m (even longer later) and from long-bladed slashing weapons to cheap pointed sticks. The classification will be based on how it was used- the skilled samurai fenced, the Ashigaru huddled.

Ashigaru from c 1430-ish are defensive spear. The "followers" from which they evolved are unprtected poor mediums with other weapons, with some archers.


Cheers

John

[irondog068]

I am tired of arguing the point. I don't play tournys but if you come across my Samurai for 1550 to 1600 expect this:
Samurai: Armored/drilled/offensive spear-skilled swordsman/superoir
Ashigaru: Protected/drilled/defensive spear/sword or longbow (teppo) swordsman.
Monks: Protected of armored/drilled/superoir small precent elite (fanatics)/ heavy cutting weapon or teppo.

This is for my 28mm and 15mm don't care for it sorry. Its my little world of lead. If someone can give me a reason why not besides "The rules end at 1500 and you will be set on fire" please let me know.

[Malidor]

You've already been told in this thread and on the Yahoo list to do what you want, if you're still waiting for endorsement from strangers I'm sorry to say that's probably as good as it's going to get. The essence of what you're trying to do is fair enough, however the point you seem to be trying to argue is ultimately moot.

If someone can give me a reason why not besides "The rules end at 1500 and you will be set on fire" please let me know.

• There are better systems for the period you want to play.
• Expect disappointment when FoG gets around to publishing a Samurai list (many years away) and there are no teppo.
• Being set on fire is a compelling argument.

Are you hoping we'll use your list or that Slitherine will publish it? Other than validation I'm not sure what more you want from us - I'm not trying to flame you here.

If you can find someone who is happy enough to play against what you've written then good for you.